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Beaker

Beaker Avatar

Location: Your safe space


Posted: Jun 3, 2024 - 6:26am

 kurtster wrote:

Anyway, Ms Carroll is not naive nor the picture of innocence as you seem to insist that she is. I see it as a case of someone trying to cash in on the "me, too" movement and nothing else. And did she. Trump paid her a lot of money. Serious life changing money.

Trump hasn't paid Carroll anything yet - he's going to appeal the verdicts.  Per Grok:

"As of the latest information available, Donald Trump has taken steps to address the judgment awarded to E. Jean Carroll. In March 2024, Trump secured a $91.6 million bond to cover the money he owes to E. Jean Carroll in a defamation lawsuit while he appeals the jury's verdict. This bond was posted to ensure that Carroll can collect the judgment if it remains intact following appeals. The bond was approved by a federal judge, insulating Trump from any effort to collect the judgment while he appeals the verdict."

Trump is appealing the rape verdict along with the earlier verdict where Carroll was awarded $5M for defamation. 


kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 11:17pm

 rgio wrote:
Nobody ever argues innocent.  When I asked Kurt that below he just ignored and it moves on to defend the "non-raping" assaulter as if somehow "we've got it all wrong" because he used his fingers instead of his penis.  
 
Yeah, go Dr Ruth.  How about some pictures ?  Your fascination with the methods is very disturbing.  I don't care if it was his fingers, his penis or a cigar.  It's all the same to me.

What I said about the Carroll matter is that it is a "she said, he said" thing.  Nothing was proven.  The time it happened was even vague on her own recollection.  Carroll is a known player in the rich and famous circles and has even been quoted as saying that rape is sexy.  According to her, she invited Trump into a dressing room in a lingerie section of a very upscale department store.  Sounds like some kinda deal like the Mile High Club.  Another fantasy to check off the list.  Maybe it didn't quite go the way she wanted it to.  Like, not enough foreplay ?  Pissed her off.  Anyway, Ms Carroll is not naive nor the picture of innocence as you seem to insist that she is.  I see it as a case of someone trying to cash in on the "me, too" movement and nothing else.  And did she. Trump paid her a lot of money. Serious life changing money.   Not enough in your view ? You want more out of him ?  It is between Trump and Carroll, you are not part of the equation other than another gawker rubber necking as the rich and famous do their Gatsby thing.  You're just jealous of that world.

 

Selfish. Greedy. Stupid.  All Trump supporters have a least one of those traits.  Some have more.  Somehow, they believe Trump is going to fix things he never fixed the first time.  The border... he stopped a bill and Kurt argues that it isn't perfect...doesn't do enough.  Either he's truly stupid, or he's just arguing to avoid giving anyone but Trump credit for incremental improvement.  
 
Yep, The border bill.  Bad, bad law.  It would have codified into law the legal admission of 5,000 illegal crossings per day.  There was a HB 2 sent to the Senate pretty much in the beginning that never even got a look see.  A much more comprehensive solution.  Rather than pass another bad law on top of so many bad laws already not being enforced., waiting for a better solution makes the most sense.  Biden can undo everything he did to Trump's actions and restore control immediately without Congress acting.  He chose's not to.  What make you so sure he will enforce new laws ?

 
Trump is the first President in modern history to leave office with fewer jobs than he entered.  Economic growth under Trump was the slowest since 1946.  Unemployment when Trump left office was 6.3%... up 1.6%.  The labor force participation rate was the lowest since 1948. He added over $8T in debt, and his tax cuts have proven to be a gift to the top 1%.  There is nothing in those numbers to 'long for".

So the rebuttal... the pandemic.  If you give Trump a pass for it, then any suggestion that Biden is responsible for inflation is foolish.  Financially, we are in the best position of any major country in the world right now.  The question isn't "Were you better off in 2019"...everyone was.  The question isn't "Are prices too high"... they are everywhere.  
 
Yeah, the pandemic.  You chose to ignore the pre pandemic economy.  The first three years of his term.  He accomplished the lowest overall unemployment rate in decades and the lowest ever for all minorities that are tracked. A constantly rising labor participation number. There was real wage growth for the lower classes for the first time in decades.  The % wage growth for them exceeded the upper classes.  A direct result of his tax cuts. and other fiscal policies.  Yet you use the pandemic numbers exclusively to judge his accomplishments.  If anything the pandemic is just as worthy for an asterisk as is the use of steroids in baseball. You do finances for a living, right ?  I wouldn't trust you to balance my checkbook.

kcar

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Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 7:51pm


islander

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Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 6:09pm

 haresfur wrote:


I interpreted Black's idea as being that the actual payment to Cohen by Trump didn't take place until after the election so that the illegal payments couldn't elevate the crimes to felonies. If not, I'm not sure what they're on about.


Yes, but the whole thing isn't hard to grasp. Cohen paid Daniels (campaign finance violations/election interference) at the behest of trump and Pecker (conspiracy). Trump repaid Cohen (same crimes), but tried to hide what the payments were for (misdemeanor falsifying business records, but escalated to felony because it was done in commission of another crime(s)).  This has been through several sets of jurors and grand jurors, and everyone of those has found the evidence compelling.
haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 5:43pm

 islander wrote:


It's the same crime. Cohen already went to jail.  Remember unindicted co-conspirator #1?


I interpreted Black's idea as being that the actual payment to Cohen by Trump didn't take place until after the election so that the illegal payments couldn't elevate the crimes to felonies. If not, I'm not sure what they're on about.
islander

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Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 4:37pm

 haresfur wrote:

I don't know the details of the arguments at trial. But if Trump had Cohen pay her off before the election as part of election interference and to maintain hands off until after the election, then it is still election interference, correct? Even if the actual transfer of money and illegal bookkeeping happened after. 



It's the same crime. Cohen already went to jail.  Remember unindicted co-conspirator #1?
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 3:51pm

More food for thought: 

1. Yes, Merchan contributed money to Biden's 2020 campaign—all of $15. 

2. An appeals court agreed with Merchan that he could impartially preside over the case. 

3.  The Manhattan DA's case against Trump began in 2018 when Biden was not in office and not the Democrats' presidential nominee. 

4. Trump's attorneys had a chance to argue that the charges should be considered misdemeanors in the jury instructions but did not. 


There is a video of the conversation available on the Web page linked to below: 






'He gave $15': NBC host deflates Tom Cotton's talking point on judge's link to Biden

NBC guest host Peter Alexander pushed back against Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR) after he suggested Donald Trump's conviction in a New York hush money trial was rigged.

Alexander began the Sunday interview on Meet the Press by correcting Cotton.

"So let me just clarify a couple things for our audience right now," Alexander said. "As you know well, this was a state case. Donald Trump was indicted by a grand jury in New York. He was convicted by a jury of 12 New Yorkers beyond a reasonable doubt."

"They didn't seek this responsibility," the host added. "Joe Biden, as you know, had nothing to do with this case, senator. In fact, the Manhattan DA's investigation, this case began in 2018 when Joe Biden wasn't even the party's, the Democratic Party's presidential nominee."

Cotton, however, insisted, "The jury got it wrong."

"Again, you had a judge who is literally a donor to Joe Biden's campaign in 2020 so he could stop Donald Trump," the senator continued. "He should have never been presiding over this case. He introduced evidence that was highly, highly inflammatory and prejudicial. He didn't allow President Trump to put on certain evidence and witnesses."

Alexander deflated Cotton's talking point.

"You're talking about the judge, Juan Merchan," the host pointed out. "He did give $20 to Democrats, gave $15 to Joe Biden in 2020. But the appeals court, Senator, affirmed his decision to stay on the case."

"And as it relates to the rules, the instructions, Trump's lawyers passed on the opportunity to argue that the charges should be considered misdemeanors in the jury instructions," he noted.




Isabeau

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Location: sou' tex
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Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 3:36pm

 haresfur wrote:

I don't know the details of the arguments at trial. But if Trump had Cohen pay her off before the election as part of election interference and to maintain hands off until after the election, then it is still election interference, correct? Even if the actual transfer of money and illegal bookkeeping happened after. 




The story broke in 2018, when The Wall Street Journal reported that Trump's former attorney Michael Cohen paid US $130,000 to Daniels for her silence during the 2016 Trump campaign.
Isabeau

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Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 3:34pm

 kurtster wrote:

And yet this kind of election interference is perfectly acceptable.


Wait. Where are the ubiquitous Alien baby haids?
haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 3:12pm

 black321 wrote:


100% with your last comment.

from what I’ve read, he committed crimes, yes. But I haven’t heard a good explanation discussing the timing of the fraud… how something that happened in 2017, the fraudulent transactions, influenced an election in 2016? 

paying someone off is not illegal. 
thanks, I’m tapping out. 

I don't know the details of the arguments at trial. But if Trump had Cohen pay her off before the election as part of election interference and to maintain hands off until after the election, then it is still election interference, correct? Even if the actual transfer of money and illegal bookkeeping happened after. 

kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 2:38pm


And yet this kind of election interference is perfectly acceptable.
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 1:11pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:



Put him in prison.

If his supporters become violent, arrest them and put them in prison too, then charge Trump with terrorism like any one else who incites violence to achieve political power. That's what Trump is, a terrorist. And we've got plenty of laws to deal with him and his followers.

Keep doing it until we get them all.

~Jim Wright



I think there's a good chance that Trump will see some jail time if he loses on appeal. He has shown no remorse and has repeatedly ignored the court—e.g. the gag orders. Merchan AFAICT can also consider Trump's behavior before and beyond this trial. 



https://www.courthousenews.com...

How Trump could end up with a prison sentence following his guilty verdict in New York

“Judge Merchan tends to be harsher on white collar criminals than many other judges,” veteran defense attorney Ronald Kuby told Courthouse News.


...

It’s all up to New York Supreme Court Justice Juan Merchan, the Manhattan judge who presided over Trump’s six-week criminal trial. Trump’s specific charges were for falsifying business records, a Class E felony in New York State that carries a sentencing range of 16 months to 4 years.

That’s only if Merchan decides to send Trump to prison, however.

Attorney and former diplomat Norm Eisen found in an analysis that just around one in 10 people who have been convicted of falsifying business records are imprisoned — and those typically involve additional charges, Eisen wrote for The New York Times in April.

Merchan instead could sentence Trump to probation or community service, which pundits like Eisen believe is a more likely scenario.

But veteran New York defense attorney Ronald Kuby thinks many are overlooking Merchan’s history with defendants like Trump.

“Judge Merchan tends to be harsher on white collar criminals than many other judges,” Kuby told Courthouse News. “That’s just his reputation … so that’s bad news for Trump.”

Kuby explained that Merchan, who presides over Manhattan’s mental health court every Wednesday, is known for being compassionate with his most disadvantaged of defendants.

“Conversely, his reputation is that if you’re rich and powerful, you should really play by the rules,” Kuby said.

Kuby said Merchan’s decision will rely on a multitude of factors, like whether or not the former president has shown he’s capable of reforming or expressing remorse for his actions. That means his continued denial of the case’s legitimacy — even after the verdict — could come back to bite him.

“This is all done by Biden and his people,” Trump baselessly claimed during a press conference Friday morning.

Trump’s financial history doesn’t help matters, Kuby added. After all, the ex-president is coming off a $355 million civil fraud judgment against him that came down just months before his criminal trial began.

“You can’t exactly say he’s been a model citizen in his financial dealings until this,” Kuby said.

Retired New York judge George Grasso, who watched every day of the trial from an aisle seat in the press gallery, sees the severity of Trump’s crimes as the biggest risk to land him behind bars.

“He’s convicted of 34 separate counts, so it’s 34 felonies here,” Grasso told Courthouse News. “Taking that conviction on its face, this isn’t just like a green glasses accounting error kind of thing, or a borderline error. This is behavior that ultimately interfered with an honest election. And theoretically … this could have impacted the election. That was a very close election.”

Grasso pushed back on the potential argument that Trump committed a victimless crime.

“The victim, you could say, is the people who voted in the United States, New Yorkers who went out and voted and thought they were participating in an honest and fair election, when you have a guy maybe diluting the impact of our votes here,” Grasso said. “So, that’s pretty serious in my book."

Trump has no prior criminal record, and while that's often the case with white-collar defendants, the lack of a rap sheet could help Trump avoid jail time.

Even if it doesn’t, Kuby said that Trump’s seemingly endless stamina for legal appeals, coupled with New York’s bail laws, could keep him free while the appellate process plays out.

“Due to New York’s bail laws, it is almost certain that Donald Trump will remain free on bail pending appeal while all of his various appeals go through various courts,” Kuby said. “The idea that if Merchan sends him to jail, he’s going to spend the Republican National Convention behind bars is just ridiculous.”

Trump continues to deny the legitimacy of Thursday's verdict and the proceedings as a whole. He remained persistent in his attacks on Merchan on Friday, calling the judge “highly conflicted.” But Trump has stopped short of overtly targeting the jury since the verdict, pursuant to a still-active gag order imposed by Merchan to protect the trial’s witnesses and jurors.

A Manhattan jury on Thursday found Trump guilty on all 34 counts of falsifying business records. The jurors found that Trump broke the law when he manipulated documents to cover up a scheme to illegally interfere with the 2016 presidential election.


Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 12:11pm




Put him in prison.

If his supporters become violent, arrest them and put them in prison too, then charge Trump with terrorism like any one else who incites violence to achieve political power. That's what Trump is, a terrorist. And we've got plenty of laws to deal with him and his followers.

Keep doing it until we get them all.

~Jim Wright

steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 11:29am

For those/anyone who want/wants to get in the weeds on the questions of whether the underlying or object offense had to be proven by a reasonable doubt and whether the jurors had to agree unanimously on what was the underlying or object offense, Lawfare provided this framework analysis:

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/a...

R_P

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 10:27am

Trump takes off on TikTok

Beaker

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Location: Your safe space


Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 9:09am

From 'Your favorite conspiracy theory? thread:'

 Red_Dragon wrote:

That Biden is behind the prosecution of Trump.


Guy Benson: On the Trump Verdict
According to Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg, a hardcore anti-Trump partisan who campaigned as such, that constituted a crime. Others disagreed. Bragg's predecessor in that office looked at the same facts and chose not to pursue a case. The federal Department of Justice looked at the same facts and chose not to pursue a case. The Federal Elections Commission looked at the possibility that these actions represented a campaign finance violation, and chose not to pursue even a civil case or a fine. But Bragg exploited his authority — usually reserved in his worldview for downgrading charges, including for violent crimes — to charge these long-ago misdemeanor-at-worst acts as felonies. Why not stick with misdemeanor charges (which are rarely prosecuted by Bragg)? Because those statutes of limitations expired in 2019. To make a case viable during this election cycle, which I believe has been the entire point from the beginning, they had to be felonies. So Bragg invented what even the New York Times acknowledged as a never-before-attempted legal theory under which the bookkeeping mis-categorizations were part of a conspiracy that involved another crime. That turned them into felonies under this strained, untested bank shot.

Ultimately, the judge in the case — who donated to his defendant's political opponent in their last election match-up — told the Manhattan jury that they could select from a menu of three options that could be considered the critical, felony-creating 'other crime.' These options were not adjudicated at trial, let alone proven. They weren't spelled out in the indictment. The defense was not able to defend against them. Attempts at educating the jury on the most likely of the options were barred by the Biden donor judge. A top expert's highly-relevant testimony was preemptively disallowed, and therefore never heard. One of the prosecutors in the courtroom joined Bragg's legal team from President Biden's Justice Department, where he'd been serving as the third highest-ranking official. He quit and became an assistant in a local DA's office, which is unheard of. This man, who was paid thousands of dollars for political consulting by the Democratic National Committee during Trump's presidency, clearly had a very specific objective in mind. Days before Trump's conviction, his electoral opponent's team held a campaign event at the courthouse. These facts — in isolation, and especially taken together — are breathtaking.

Whether one wants to call this a 'rigged' trial, or simply observe that the deck was stacked against Trump in astonishing ways, is a rhetorical matter. Smart legal minds from across the spectrum seem to agree that there are ample grounds for 'reversible error' appeals, on multiple fronts. But in some important ways, that's beside the point. The goal here, as I see it, has been to emblazon 'convicted felon' across Donald Trump's forehead prior to the election, then repeat those two words endlessly until November. If the conviction gets thrown out on appeal down the line, as is likely, so what? The charges were political, the trial was political, and the result was orchestrated to achieve a political result. This is undeniable, in my view, and is therefore deeply disturbing. This is a major abuse of the criminal justice system. As I've written previously, if a former president (and current major candidate) is to be criminally prosecuted for the first time in our nation's history, the case against him ought to be crystal clear. The legal theory underpinning said case should be well-tested and extremely familiar. The alleged violations should be grave. This unfolding scenario goes 0-for-3 on those points. A disgrace.

Guy Benson is not a Trump fan.  He's never voted for him.  He finds Trump to be "a volatile, capricious, myopic, petty man for as long as I've been aware of his existence."

Read it all.



islander

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Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 7:13am

 black321 wrote:


100% with your last comment.

from what I’ve read, he committed crimes, yes. But I haven’t heard a good explanation discussing the timing of the fraud… how something that happened in 2017, the fraudulent transactions, influenced an election in 2016? 

paying someone off is not illegal. 
thanks, I’m tapping out. 


It is when it is done in violation of another law. Campaign finance laws in this case. Cohen went to jail over these payments and the trump payments were reimbursements - so they were for the same purpose and violated the same laws. Jesse Jackson Jr. also went to jail for similar charges. Dinesh D'souza would have if Trump hadn't pardoned him.

The crime, conspiracy and timeline is all well laid out by the prosecution, hence the unanimous decisions. This is all pretty straightforward, what is your motive in not acknowledging it?
rgio

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Location: West Jersey
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Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 5:47am

 islander wrote:
...reticence to simply accept the fact that he did something wrong and is being held to account appropriately is strange.  

Isn't that what nearly all of this thread is about?

The insanity of the rapist "discussion" is proof that some will support a proven liar, confessed sexual predator, tax cheat, serial business failure who started with a few hundred million and has cheated and lied and bankrupted others to stay solvent... no matter what.  

Nobody ever argues innocent.  When I asked Kurt that below he just ignored and it moves on to defend the "non-raping" assaulter as if somehow "we've got it all wrong" because he used his fingers instead of his penis.  The notion that Trump would lift a finger to save Kurt if he was drowning in front of him is laughable, yet Kurt is defending Trump from the deep state that's apparently out to get all of us.  

Selfish. Greedy. Stupid.  All Trump supporters have a least one of those traits.  Some have more.  Somehow, they believe Trump is going to fix things he never fixed the first time.  The border... he stopped a bill and Kurt argues that it isn't perfect...doesn't do enough.  Either he's truly stupid, or he's just arguing to avoid giving anyone but Trump credit for incremental improvement.  

Trump is the first President in modern history to leave office with fewer jobs than he entered.  Economic growth under Trump was the slowest since 1946.  Unemployment when Trump left office was 6.3%... up 1.6%.  The labor force participation rate was the lowest since 1948. He added over $8T in debt, and his tax cuts have proven to be a gift to the top 1%.  There is nothing in those numbers to 'long for".

So the rebuttal... the pandemic.  If you give Trump a pass for it, then any suggestion that Biden is responsible for inflation is foolish.  Financially, we are in the best position of any major country in the world right now.  The question isn't "Were you better off in 2019"...everyone was.  The question isn't "Are prices too high"... they are everywhere.  

The question is, "Given a war in Ukraine, a war in Gaza, and the supply chain disruptions of the pandemic... what would Trump have done that would have us in a better position today?"  The answer is nothing.  He has never given a credible suggestion about how he'd handle inflation, and his "the wars would never have happened" is a total fantasy.  Trump would have given Ukraine to Putin, abandoned our allies, and driven the debt higher with more programs to support his friends.  Can you imagine the "Commercial Real Estate Bailout" Trump would create to help "America" recover from the China Virus?

Accountability isn't something the MAGA world cares about.... unless you're a migrant.


steeler

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Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 5:13am

 black321 wrote:


100% with your last comment.

from what I’ve read, he committed crimes, yes. But I haven’t heard a good explanation discussing the timing of the fraud… how something that happened in 2017, the fraudulent transactions, influenced an election in 2016? 

paying someone off is not illegal. 
thanks, I’m tapping out. 


It is all part of a scheme.


"From August 2015 to December 2017, the Defendant orchestrated a scheme with others to influence the 2016 presidential election by identifying and purchasing negative information about him to suppress its publication and benefit the Defendant's electoral prospects. In order to execute the unlawful scheme, the participants violated election laws and made and caused false entries in the business records of various entities in New York," prosecutors said in a statement of facts accompanying the charges.



Steely_D

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Posted: Jun 2, 2024 - 2:41am

Trump doesn’t tell his girlfriends that they remind him of Melania.

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