[ ]   [ ]   [ ]                        [ ]      [ ]   [ ]

April 2025 Photo Theme - Red - Antigone - Apr 23, 2025 - 11:16am
 
Talk Behind Their Backs Forum - ScottFromWyoming - Apr 23, 2025 - 10:54am
 
Trump - ColdMiser - Apr 23, 2025 - 10:34am
 
NY Times Strands - ptooey - Apr 23, 2025 - 10:10am
 
• • • BRING OUT YOUR DEAD • • •  - oldviolin - Apr 23, 2025 - 9:55am
 
Vinyl Only Spin List - Steely_D - Apr 23, 2025 - 9:38am
 
Musky Mythology - rgio - Apr 23, 2025 - 9:28am
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - MJdub - Apr 23, 2025 - 9:06am
 
Graphs, Charts & Maps - ptooey - Apr 23, 2025 - 8:59am
 
Radio Paradise Staion Break - geoff_morphini - Apr 23, 2025 - 8:16am
 
Wordle - daily game - rgio - Apr 23, 2025 - 8:12am
 
Today in History - Red_Dragon - Apr 23, 2025 - 8:09am
 
Geeky funny - Proclivities - Apr 23, 2025 - 7:42am
 
Hockey + Fantasy Hockey - dischuckin - Apr 23, 2025 - 7:13am
 
NYTimes Connections - islander - Apr 23, 2025 - 6:51am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - Coaxial - Apr 23, 2025 - 5:50am
 
Things You Thought Today - ScottFromWyoming - Apr 22, 2025 - 9:45pm
 
Mixtape Culture Club - KurtfromLaQuinta - Apr 22, 2025 - 5:38pm
 
Real Time with Bill Maher - R_P - Apr 22, 2025 - 1:51pm
 
260,000 Posts in one thread? - Lazy8 - Apr 22, 2025 - 12:27pm
 
Happy Earth Day - R_P - Apr 22, 2025 - 12:26pm
 
Tesla (motors, batteries, etc) - islander - Apr 22, 2025 - 10:03am
 
Republican Party - Red_Dragon - Apr 22, 2025 - 9:30am
 
Thimerosal Vaccines linked to neurological disorders - islander - Apr 21, 2025 - 8:48pm
 
DQ (as in 'Daily Quote') - JimTreadwell - Apr 21, 2025 - 4:23pm
 
Israel - R_P - Apr 21, 2025 - 3:46pm
 
The Obituary Page - rgio - Apr 21, 2025 - 12:24pm
 
M.A.G.A. - Proclivities - Apr 21, 2025 - 12:17pm
 
Cryptic Posts - Leave Them Guessing - GeneP59 - Apr 21, 2025 - 8:40am
 
Freedom of speech? - rgio - Apr 21, 2025 - 4:43am
 
Name My Band - GeneP59 - Apr 20, 2025 - 7:45pm
 
::yesterday:: - Red_Dragon - Apr 20, 2025 - 3:35pm
 
Poetry Forum - oldviolin - Apr 20, 2025 - 8:43am
 
Favourite Scriptures - black321 - Apr 20, 2025 - 8:30am
 
Museum Of Bad Album Covers - Proclivities - Apr 20, 2025 - 7:55am
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - oldviolin - Apr 19, 2025 - 10:23pm
 
YouTube: Music-Videos - oldviolin - Apr 19, 2025 - 10:14pm
 
Song of the Day - oldviolin - Apr 19, 2025 - 8:53pm
 
I Thought Earth Had Only One Moon - Red_Dragon - Apr 19, 2025 - 5:06pm
 
The war on funk is over! - R_P - Apr 19, 2025 - 4:02pm
 
China - R_P - Apr 19, 2025 - 1:57pm
 
Other Medical Stuff - kurtster - Apr 19, 2025 - 1:43pm
 
Quick! I need a chicken... - Isabeau - Apr 19, 2025 - 1:00pm
 
Pernicious Pious Proclivities Particularized Prodigiously - R_P - Apr 19, 2025 - 12:45pm
 
Best Song Comments. - ScottFromWyoming - Apr 19, 2025 - 11:15am
 
Outstanding Covers - oldviolin - Apr 19, 2025 - 9:59am
 
Mars - oldviolin - Apr 19, 2025 - 9:53am
 
Lyrics That Remind You of Someone - oldviolin - Apr 19, 2025 - 9:32am
 
Live Music - Steely_D - Apr 19, 2025 - 7:30am
 
Immigration - R_P - Apr 18, 2025 - 7:05pm
 
Dialing 1-800-Manbird - oldviolin - Apr 18, 2025 - 6:43pm
 
Need A Thread Killed? - oldviolin - Apr 18, 2025 - 6:25pm
 
Music Videos - oldviolin - Apr 18, 2025 - 5:19pm
 
Commercializing Facebook - R_P - Apr 18, 2025 - 4:49pm
 
Positive Thoughts and Prayer Requests - Antigone - Apr 18, 2025 - 3:04pm
 
Fascism In America - RedTopFireBelow - Apr 18, 2025 - 3:01pm
 
New Music - black321 - Apr 18, 2025 - 1:24pm
 
Comics! - Steely_D - Apr 18, 2025 - 11:04am
 
Upcoming concerts or shows you can't wait to see - Steely_D - Apr 18, 2025 - 10:49am
 
One Partying State - Wyoming News - ScottFromWyoming - Apr 18, 2025 - 8:58am
 
How's the weather? - GeneP59 - Apr 18, 2025 - 8:40am
 
Breaking News - Red_Dragon - Apr 18, 2025 - 6:07am
 
NASA & other news from space - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Apr 18, 2025 - 12:36am
 
Ask an Atheist - Lazy8 - Apr 17, 2025 - 9:12pm
 
USA! USA! USA! - R_P - Apr 17, 2025 - 8:22pm
 
Sorry Bill/Alanna - powdapilot - Apr 17, 2025 - 5:10pm
 
Strips, cartoons, illustrations - Red_Dragon - Apr 17, 2025 - 3:37pm
 
Cinema - R_P - Apr 17, 2025 - 2:53pm
 
Words that should be put on the substitutes bench for a year - Proclivities - Apr 17, 2025 - 1:44pm
 
Ukraine - R_P - Apr 17, 2025 - 12:01pm
 
Things that are just WRONG - GeneP59 - Apr 17, 2025 - 11:08am
 
the Todd Rundgren topic - Steely_D - Apr 17, 2025 - 10:43am
 
Simpler Times???? - folkes.tom - Apr 17, 2025 - 6:46am
 
Little known information... maybe even facts - Coaxial - Apr 17, 2025 - 5:47am
 
Philly - Proclivities - Apr 17, 2025 - 4:47am
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Artificial Intelligence Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Post to this Topic
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 24, 2023 - 1:05pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

just off the top of my head, some of the implications:

  • there will be a blurring of reality and digital reality.. authenticity in the digital world will lose all meaning.   maybe this  means we start spending more time outdoors 
  • this might have psychological implications for us far more than is already the case with VR. Now we can resurrect the dead, mirror the mannerisms and thought patterns - that is just going to be plain weird...

Yikes!  Does that mean we're going to start getting robo-calls from the likes of Groucho Marx, Paul Robeson, and Ronald Reagan?
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 24, 2023 - 12:05pm

just off the top of my head, some of the implications:
  • there will be a blurring of reality and digital reality.. authenticity in the digital world will lose all meaning.   maybe this  means we start spending more time outdoors 
  • this might have psychological implications for us far more than is already the case with VR. Now we can resurrect the dead, mirror the mannerisms and thought patterns - that is just going to be plain weird
  • there will be massive productivity gains  .. I think this is the step that really does unleash unbounded productivity and frees us from the "shackles of labor" BUT
  • that will imply massive social realignment. We evolved over millions of years competing over scarce resources.. that particular branch of the evolutionary tree may have just come to an end. scarcity will become micromanaged. risk will change its meaning.
  • the distribution of wealth suddenly takes on a whole new significance.. who is going to benefit from the newly created abundance? Will it be even possible to patent proprietary rights, when the machines do 99% of the creating? Will that even mean anything? 
  • will we as a species adjust to abundance or just die of boredom?  "Hey bot, re-engineer the sabre tooth tiger."

Beaker

Beaker Avatar

Location: Your safe space


Posted: Mar 24, 2023 - 11:45am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

I agree.


NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 24, 2023 - 11:42am

 Beaker wrote:

It's a bigger deal than the emergence of the iPhone. Or Google.
It will revolutionize everything.




I agree.
Beaker

Beaker Avatar

Location: Your safe space


Posted: Mar 24, 2023 - 10:53am

It's a bigger deal than the emergence of the iPhone. Or Google.
It will revolutionize everything.

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 23, 2023 - 10:46am

probably worth your time
but you'll need to listen...



rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 23, 2023 - 7:11am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
...
The biggest problem, as I see it,  is the associated dumbing down of the audience that you refer to. A lot of younger translators are now forced to use machine translations (for cost reasons) but they just don't see the mistakes the machine makes. So over time a wrong translation becomes standard. ...
...

That is the situation that all businesses face right now, and it's a bit of a chicken and egg.  It's very hard to find financial, tax, and accounting staff who are interested in "knowing" the rules and reasons.  They want the answers.  Quickly.  As easy as possible.  Maybe the biggest change isn't work ethic, so much as a total loss of inquisitive nature.   Why or how doesn't matter...just what.

For now, more senior staff can fill in the holes and avoid the breakage, but that's going to end soon.  When nobody understands why things were done, how will they ever adapt to the constantly changing universe?  

It may all end up OK, because when they can't explain things (like the US tax code), maybe they just start over and by default remove all of the subtle problems that have built up over time, but it's a huge risk.

As negative as I and others can be about AI and its use, it is an amazingly exciting time to be working.   I've lived through the migration from analog to digital in finance, and wish I could stick around long enough to fix some of the legacy issues.   Change can't come fast enough, as I probably only have 10 or 15 years left to play.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 23, 2023 - 6:16am

 rgio wrote:

I was just having a discussion with my business partner about this very topic, albeit in a slightly different context.  Content has been the proxy for value in a lot of professions for a long time.  The best content won.  Picture quality. Sound quality.  Research details.  Quality (as you say) was king, and an acceptance of lower quality was done as a concession for other realities, primarily cost.

Now, it's more about the experience.  The ease of consumption, the integration (of everything), the universal availability of what I want, when I want it, wherever I want it.  The vast majority of users will surrender accuracy for the experience.   Thinking less is better than having to work harder, especially when so many don't know the difference between the right and wrong answers.
.
As for language, I'd suggest that it's one of the basic knowledge categories that people look for answers to.  Chair.  It's an object with pretty much a universal definition. Multiple legs, often with a back, used for sitting.  I typed "what is the word for chair in the 10 most popular languages on the planet" into Bard just now...and it returned this..
  1. Mandarin Chinese: 椅子 (yǐzi)
  2. Spanish: silla
  3. English: chair
  4. Hindi: कुर्सी (kūrsē)
  5. Arabic:เก้าอี้ (ghiyā’)
  6. Portuguese: cadeira
  7. Russian:椅子 (yézya)
  8. Japanese: 椅子 (isō)
  9. German: Stuhl
  10. French: chaise
Impressive, but basic.  Sentence structure is more complex, but still relatively simple, as the rules are fixed.  Would you give directions to your hotel using a free app to translate...sure.  Would you buy a house or take a job after translating the contracts using a free tool?  Probably not.  It's a matter of risk/reward, and that kind of complex decisioning will take a very long time to program.  

The human brain is an amazingly complex system, that we still don't quite understand completely.  We can automate some of the basic tasks and heavy lifting, but decision-making for critical issues is a long, long, way off.  At least in my (quite possibly very simple) mind.   Quality has lost ground to speed recently, but the pendulum will swing and people will want assurance of quality for the things they value enough to pay for.


You would be surprised how good some of the machine translations are getting. I also  long thought contextual based translation would be one step too far for a machine, but I was wrong. They are surprisingly good at it. In fact, they are frequently better than human translators. And getting better.

Talking of contracts I recently did a purchase contract for an American selling his apartment here and we decided to run it through DeepL and I'd tweak it a bit to make sure there were no gremlins in there.  Admittedly, I changed a lot, but it wasn't too far off being acceptable for his purposes. 
The biggest problem, as I see it,  is the associated dumbing down of the audience that you refer to. A lot of younger translators are now forced to use machine translations (for cost reasons) but they just don't see the mistakes the machine makes. So over time a wrong translation becomes standard. Likewise a lot of non-native speakers think, yeah, that's just what I wanted to say, but they don't get the cultural nuance or understand what is the right thing to say in a certain situation.  

I recently had one CEO wanting to thank the Chairman of the Supervisory Board (who was stepping down and was basically his boss) for "his cooperation", which is fine in German, as it is neutral, but in English it has a distinct whiff of "thanks for doing everything I told you to do" and IMO inappropriate. He ran it through DeepL and came back at me to say I was wrong.
So, yeah, great, whatever, dude, I thought.  Needless to say, that was one of the clients I lost. This guy is also kind of tone-deaf and the kind of non-native speaker who is convinced he has full mastery of the English language, so I'm not too unhappy to have lost his business. But the ironic thing is the Chairman of the Supervisory Board is also a non-native speaker and wouldn't have had any problem with the phrase, so it turns out the only person not on the same page is me.  In these situations, the machine is going to win.
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 23, 2023 - 5:43am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:


You are giving me hope rgio!!  But I have doubts about the bolded bit. 
When DVD came out I had a friend who was a sound engineer and invested heavily in a new studio to produce high-end audio quality, believing the market would move to exploit the new sound quality it afforded (mainly for classical music). The opposite happened. The market moved to compressed files and mp3, mainly because everyone could suddenly rip their own files making them basically free.  The same is now happening in my field. Machine translation can come up with some real clangers, but the translations are getting astonishingly better very rapidly. There comes a point when customers' quality expectations begin to fall in favour of something that is maybe not quite so good, but (almost) free.

And if something as complex as language can be handled, with all its nuance. I think it is only a question of time that it starts handling most other fields. All you need is a massive dataset, an ability to recognize patterns, apply logical arguments and mathematical probability models and hey presto, you've got something pretty damn close to the average brain.

I was just having a discussion with my business partner about this very topic, albeit in a slightly different context.  Content has been the proxy for value in a lot of professions for a long time.  The best content won.  Picture quality. Sound quality.  Research details.  Quality (as you say) was king, and an acceptance of lower quality was done as a concession for other realities, primarily cost.

Now, it's more about the experience.  The ease of consumption, the integration (of everything), the universal availability of what I want, when I want it, wherever I want it.  The vast majority of users will surrender accuracy for the experience.   Thinking less is better than having to work harder, especially when so many don't know the difference between the right and wrong answers.
.
As for language, I'd suggest that it's one of the basic knowledge categories that people look for answers to.  Chair.  It's an object with pretty much a universal definition. Multiple legs, often with a back, used for sitting.  I typed "what is the word for chair in the 10 most popular languages on the planet" into Bard just now...and it returned this..
  1. Mandarin Chinese: 椅子 (yǐzi)
  2. Spanish: silla
  3. English: chair
  4. Hindi: कुर्सी (kūrsē)
  5. Arabic:เก้าอี้ (ghiyā’)
  6. Portuguese: cadeira
  7. Russian:椅子 (yézya)
  8. Japanese: 椅子 (isō)
  9. German: Stuhl
  10. French: chaise
Impressive, but basic.  Sentence structure is more complex, but still relatively simple, as the rules are fixed.  Would you give directions to your hotel using a free app to translate...sure.  Would you buy a house or take a job after translating the contracts using a free tool?  Probably not.  It's a matter of risk/reward, and that kind of complex decisioning will take a very long time to program.  

The human brain is an amazingly complex system, that we still don't quite understand completely.  We can automate some of the basic tasks and heavy lifting, but decision-making for critical issues is a long, long, way off.  At least in my (quite possibly very simple) mind.   Quality has lost ground to speed recently, but the pendulum will swing and people will want assurance of quality for the things they value enough to pay for.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 23, 2023 - 3:33am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

.. and hey presto, you've got something pretty damn close to the average brain.


a case in point.

NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 22, 2023 - 10:37pm

 rgio wrote:

Speed comes in many forms.  The ability to consume is now immense, but machines must be trained by humans for true AI.  The training speed is going to take time.  Google has the internet mapped, and the first few answers I got from Bard were fabricated crap.  

There is also a reality that content and mediation/training are quickly forming teams, and will charge more for focused knowledge.  Chat GPT might do an OK job translating, but I'm sure you have a favorite or two already.  You using those systems will train the datasets you have access to, but they won't improve translation for everyone.  The moats will get wider and the barriers to entry greater.

This year everyone will use as much as they can.  Soon, errors will begin to matter, and people will pull back from the blind acceptance of AI that's going on now.   We have entered the peak of inflated expectations per Gartner's Hype cycle....the trough of disillusionment awaits. 


You are giving me hope rgio!!  But I have doubts about the bolded bit. 
When DVD came out I had a friend who was a sound engineer and invested heavily in a new studio to produce high-end audio quality, believing the market would move to exploit the new sound quality it afforded (mainly for classical music). The opposite happened. The market moved to compressed files and mp3, mainly because everyone could suddenly rip their own files making them basically free.  The same is now happening in my field. Machine translation can come up with some real clangers, but the translations are getting astonishingly better very rapidly. There comes a point when customers' quality expectations begin to fall in favour of something that is maybe not quite so good, but (almost) free.

And if something as complex as language can be handled, with all its nuance. I think it is only a question of time that it starts handling most other fields. All you need is a massive dataset, an ability to recognize patterns, apply logical arguments and mathematical probability models and hey presto, you've got something pretty damn close to the average brain.
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 22, 2023 - 2:46pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

I think it is going to go faster than you think. AI has reached a point where its ability to learn is outpacing its  drawbacks.  In my own field (translation) there have been serious inroads by AI tools but we have learned to incorporate them. Last year was my busiest ever. This year is also busy (so far).. but prices have plummeted. I can't afford to keep my employee on anymore, which means loss of quality and ultimately less competitiveness on  a market dominated by increasingly powerful AI machines. I have lost one major client so far (well, two actually, but won three others) but still..  It's only a matter of time.  Time to think about becoming a professional athlete I guess. 

Speed comes in many forms.  The ability to consume is now immense, but machines must be trained by humans for true AI.  The training speed is going to take time.  Google has the internet mapped, and the first few answers I got from Bard were fabricated crap.  

There is also a reality that content and mediation/training are quickly forming teams, and will charge more for focused knowledge.  Chat GPT might do an OK job translating, but I'm sure you have a favorite or two already.  You using those systems will train the datasets you have access to, but they won't improve translation for everyone.  The moats will get wider and the barriers to entry greater.

This year everyone will use as much as they can.  Soon, errors will begin to matter, and people will pull back from the blind acceptance of AI that's going on now.   We have entered the peak of inflated expectations per Gartner's Hype cycle....the trough of disillusionment awaits. 

R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 22, 2023 - 2:21pm

A greed bias
Medicare Advantage Uses Algorithms to Block Care for Seniors
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 22, 2023 - 1:47pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:


ok, scratch artists. 

what's left?    clergy, diplomats, plumbers..  might go for plumber.

I have a few friends who are plumbers - one can make a good living at it once you get established, but among the building trades, fewer people seem to want that one - especially when starting out.  Yeah, I can't see AI being able to do much of what it involves - at least unless/until the methods and materials of construction change drastically.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 22, 2023 - 1:39pm

 rgio wrote:

It's going to be a long time before AI replaces almost all jobs.  What will happen quickly is that it will separate occupations into "those using AI" and those not.  A lawyer who effectively uses it will be much more productive than one who doesn't.  Accountants, coders, and dozens of others. 

#20 on the list is Small business owners.  While it may not eliminate the need for people to run small companies, it very well may be a requirement to successfully market, manage, and grow a company.  At some point, not using AI as a small business owner is going to put your company at a competitive disadvantage.

FWIW - I've been using both GPT4 and Bard, and they both have some serious problems.


I think it is going to go faster than you think. AI has reached a point where its ability to learn is outpacing its  drawbacks.  In my own field (translation) there have been serious inroads by AI tools but we have learned to incorporate them. Last year was my busiest ever. This year is also busy (so far).. but prices have plummeted. I can't afford to keep my employee on anymore, which means loss of quality and ultimately less competitiveness on  a market dominated by increasingly powerful AI machines. I have lost one major client so far (well, two actually, but won three others) but still..  It's only a matter of time.  Time to think about becoming a professional athlete I guess. 


dischuckin

dischuckin Avatar

Location: dry shippys wa
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 22, 2023 - 1:31pm


rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 22, 2023 - 1:28pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:


ok, scratch artists. 

what's left?    clergy, diplomats, plumbers..  might go for plumber.

Professional athlete.  

rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 22, 2023 - 1:26pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

Typed up from twitter (yeah, I know)

secure jobs that AI can't replace:

1. therapists
2. social workers
....
19. plumbers
20. small business owners


It's going to be a long time before AI replaces almost all jobs.  What will happen quickly is that it will separate occupations into "those using AI" and those not.  A lawyer who effectively uses it will be much more productive than one who doesn't.  Accountants, coders, and dozens of others. 

#20 on the list is Small business owners.  While it may not eliminate the need for people to run small companies, it very well may be a requirement to successfully market, manage, and grow a company.  At some point, not using AI as a small business owner is going to put your company at a competitive disadvantage.

FWIW - I've been using both GPT4 and Bard, and they both have some serious problems.

NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 22, 2023 - 1:22pm

 Proclivities wrote:

There are already quite a few people (entities?) selling prints of AI-generated "art" for substantial amounts of money.  Midjourney is one of the popular apps (among very many) - just type in a prompt/description and it makes a "painting".   Not necessarily "replacing" artists or designers, but not helping either, except perhaps in the cases of artists or designers using the apps as a visualization/layout tool.


ok, scratch artists. 

what's left?    clergy, diplomats, plumbers..  might go for plumber.
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 22, 2023 - 1:18pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

Typed up from twitter (yeah, I know)

secure jobs that AI can't replace:

1. therapists
2. social workers
3. early childhood educators
4. nurses
5. artists
6. writers
......
ok, I'm going for 6 and 7.   or maybe an occupational therapist for ethical marine biologists. choices!


There are already quite a few people (entities?) selling prints of AI-generated "art" for substantial amounts of money.  Midjourney is one of the popular apps (among very many) - just type in a prompt/description and it makes a "painting".   Not necessarily "replacing" artists or designers, but not helping either, except perhaps in the cases of artists or designers using the apps as a visualization/layout tool.
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 8, 9, 10, 11  Next