[ ]   [ ]   [ ]                        [ ]      [ ]   [ ]

The War On You - rgio - Jul 25, 2024 - 5:44am
 
NY Times Strands - Proclivities - Jul 25, 2024 - 5:43am
 
NYTimes Connections - Proclivities - Jul 25, 2024 - 5:25am
 
Wordle - daily game - Proclivities - Jul 25, 2024 - 5:20am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - Coaxial - Jul 25, 2024 - 5:03am
 
Joe Biden - Antigone - Jul 25, 2024 - 2:35am
 
SCOTUS - Red_Dragon - Jul 24, 2024 - 7:56pm
 
Yellowstone is in Wyoming Meetup • Aug. 11 2007 • YEA... - Bill_J - Jul 24, 2024 - 6:47pm
 
Israel - R_P - Jul 24, 2024 - 6:08pm
 
2024 Elections! - black321 - Jul 24, 2024 - 5:56pm
 
Trump - Steely_D - Jul 24, 2024 - 4:47pm
 
Things that piss me off - Steely_D - Jul 24, 2024 - 4:31pm
 
Song from the TV series - Steely_D - Jul 24, 2024 - 3:49pm
 
songs that ROCK! - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 10:17am
 
Lyrics that are stuck in your head today... - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 9:39am
 
Song stuck in your head? - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 9:29am
 
Play the Blues - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 9:24am
 
Songs with a Groove - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 9:04am
 
Climate Change - R_P - Jul 24, 2024 - 8:54am
 
The Obituary Page - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 8:43am
 
Name My Band - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 8:35am
 
Things You Thought Today - Proclivities - Jul 24, 2024 - 8:30am
 
RightWingNutZ - Steely_D - Jul 24, 2024 - 8:21am
 
favorite love songs - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 8:21am
 
Jam! (why should a song stop) - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 7:49am
 
Song of the Day - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 7:35am
 
What the hell OV? - oldviolin - Jul 24, 2024 - 7:04am
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - oldviolin - Jul 24, 2024 - 6:43am
 
Today in History - DaveInSaoMiguel - Jul 24, 2024 - 3:28am
 
Amazing animals! - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 12:47am
 
Vinyl Only Spin List - kurtster - Jul 23, 2024 - 11:18pm
 
Kamala Harris - haresfur - Jul 23, 2024 - 8:38pm
 
Mixtape Culture Club - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 23, 2024 - 7:34pm
 
Musky Mythology - R_P - Jul 23, 2024 - 5:32pm
 
YouTube: Music-Videos - Antigone - Jul 23, 2024 - 3:28pm
 
Animal Resistance - R_P - Jul 23, 2024 - 1:54pm
 
Race in America - R_P - Jul 23, 2024 - 12:15pm
 
What Makes You Laugh? - geoff_morphini - Jul 23, 2024 - 11:42am
 
New Music - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 23, 2024 - 11:00am
 
Poetry Forum - Isabeau - Jul 23, 2024 - 8:18am
 
Sampled - R_P - Jul 22, 2024 - 6:51pm
 
Live Music - thisbody - Jul 22, 2024 - 4:29pm
 
July 2024 Photo Theme - Summer - fractalv - Jul 22, 2024 - 4:23pm
 
• • • What Makes You Happy? • • •  - thisbody - Jul 22, 2024 - 4:04pm
 
Kamala Harris - kurtster - Jul 22, 2024 - 4:02pm
 
Europe - thisbody - Jul 22, 2024 - 3:48pm
 
• • • BRING OUT YOUR DEAD • • •  - thisbody - Jul 22, 2024 - 3:05pm
 
Got my Goat - thisbody - Jul 22, 2024 - 3:02pm
 
Best wishes - thisbody - Jul 22, 2024 - 2:20pm
 
What makes you smile? - oldviolin - Jul 22, 2024 - 12:26pm
 
USA! USA! USA! - R_P - Jul 22, 2024 - 11:17am
 
Message To Lucky - oldviolin - Jul 22, 2024 - 11:12am
 
Jon Stewart interview - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 21, 2024 - 3:08pm
 
Acoustic Guitar - oldviolin - Jul 21, 2024 - 1:44pm
 
Gardeners Photos - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 21, 2024 - 7:39am
 
What Are You Going To Do Today? - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 21, 2024 - 7:36am
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - Johns2 - Jul 20, 2024 - 10:00pm
 
The Human Condition - oldviolin - Jul 20, 2024 - 7:44pm
 
Banksy! - R_P - Jul 20, 2024 - 5:16pm
 
Republican Party - thisbody - Jul 20, 2024 - 3:58pm
 
Project 2025 - Isabeau - Jul 20, 2024 - 11:45am
 
COVID-19 - Isabeau - Jul 20, 2024 - 6:40am
 
Gotta Get Your Drink On - Steely_D - Jul 19, 2024 - 8:42pm
 
The Republican Convention - Red_Dragon - Jul 19, 2024 - 6:37pm
 
Positive Thoughts and Prayer Requests - oldviolin - Jul 19, 2024 - 4:50pm
 
Russia - R_P - Jul 19, 2024 - 2:49pm
 
Solar / Wind / Geothermal / Efficiency Energy - sunybuny - Jul 19, 2024 - 7:02am
 
260,000 Posts in one thread? - oldviolin - Jul 18, 2024 - 8:43pm
 
Living in America - black321 - Jul 18, 2024 - 8:14pm
 
kurtster's quiet vinyl - kurtster - Jul 17, 2024 - 7:45pm
 
Best Song Comments. - q4Fry - Jul 17, 2024 - 7:32am
 
Rhetorical questions - sunybuny - Jul 17, 2024 - 7:29am
 
What questions would you like to answer for the world? - oldviolin - Jul 16, 2024 - 5:43pm
 
Democratic Party - Red_Dragon - Jul 16, 2024 - 4:48pm
 
Guns - Red_Dragon - Jul 16, 2024 - 3:43pm
 
Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Two sexes or ? Gender as a non-binary concept Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Post to this Topic
ziggytrix

ziggytrix Avatar

Location: Dallas, TX


Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 4:38pm

 kurtster wrote:
So we now have two cases for gender, eh ?  The biological and self identity.

Or does the biological even matter anymore ?

Or after further thought, does gender only apply to the mental state ? 

If so, how do we describe the physical state and what do we call it ?

In that I mean, how can we ignore the physical reality ?

One is reality and the other is imagined / perceived ...

I remember some 10 or so years ago I put forth the notion somewhere here that reality is a local event and immediately was told I was crazy.

Now it appears to be true.

 
As language evolves meanings change. Why do we have two words: gender AND sex?

My understanding is that "sex" has a scientific connotation. It refers to genotype and phenotype - the reproductive role. Male or female (from Latin roots).

While "gender" is undergoing a semantic shift to a more social connotation. It refers to social function - homemaker or breadwinner (or some other status). Man or woman (from Old English roots) but increasingly other, newer categories.

Not to say this is universally accepted, in fact, far from it. I believe most people still use male and female to describe gender, and therein lies this issue, IMO. We aren't all speaking the same language.

It is quite common in English for two words to have similar but not identical meanings, and even more common for people to disagree on exactly what words mean (often citing whichever dictionary or reference favors their argument).

Some people believe sex and gender are 100% synonymous, some do not. However, language does not respect the opinion of the minority. As times change it really doesn't matter if thousands of years a word meant something, once the paradigm shifts, it means what the consensus (and yes, this need only be a local consensus) understands it to mean. So it goes.

I'm curious about your response to Lazy8's post, tho. I didn't see the words "get over it" in there at all, but in your response you repeat the phase twice as though you were issued it as a command. Why is this? You were asked a reasonable question IMO. If someone who has nothing whatsoever to do with you identifies with a gender that does not match their biology, how are you affected? And how much does that affect weigh on you compared to the affect on them? How, really, does it matter?
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 3:46pm

 haresfur wrote:

Pretty simple: Don't be an asshole to other people. Base how you treat them on their abilities, not on your pre-conceived notions of who they are.

 
That sounds like something HITLER would say!
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 3:37pm

 kurtster wrote:

Yes, they were here at RP.

But my questions are serious.  Its not at all about disagreeing or delegitimizing the state of mind that is the source of this discussion.  That is real. 

We apparently have established a new dichotomy.  That being between the biological / factual and perceived.

What are the rules going to be ?  There has to be rules.  As in the link posted by Richard below, transgender is now a protected class.  It was his link that inspired me to ask. That means rules are now required.

I've been following this thread and get the idea and accept it.  Until seeing the link below I saw no reason to get into this thread.  Now I have one.

 
Pretty simple: Don't be an asshole to other people. Base how you treat them on their abilities, not on your pre-conceived notions of who they are.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 11:36am

 kurtster wrote:
 

So much for polite and honest discussion or in other words, never mind.  At least I made an effort to try to learn and gain an understanding of a revolutionary development that challenges thousands of years of conventional thinking. 

Have a nice day.

 
This is interesting. I found Lazy's post to be thoughtful and thought-provoking, and it challenged me a bit. I did not find it dishonest or impolite. But you got your back up over it. We are clearly primitive animals, if we're presented with perfectly reasonable arguments that challenge our worldview and our response is hostility. I'm not judging; I have the same reaction sometimes, and those facebook memes that try to scare us away from this behavior or that rely on our response to be irrational.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 11:21am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 
I think you are missing the real transition that is going on.

It's not so much about making the old distinctions between genders but changing the definitions of the genders as it is about making gender irrelevant, and recognizing that a lot of the assumptions our society (and its ancestors) made about gender were not accurate. That human variability is so large and traditional gender roles so restrictive that forcing people to fit within a defined role didn't match their individual natures.

You want to look at a baby's junk and know all you need to about a lot of that baby's future. The baby (and the person it grows up to be) doesn't get a say in that. And truthfully a lot of what you want to assume about that baby and that person isn't just wrong—it's not yours (or anyone else's) to decide.

There are times and places where biological gender matters, mostly medical situations. If you're not treating a patient...what's it to you?.

 
Are you telling me to F off and get over it ?

I'm not trolling.  I have not said we should do this or do that.  I'm asking honest and real questions just like sird did earlier in trying to get a handle on this.
 
 and recognizing that a lot of the assumptions our society (and its ancestors) made about gender were not accurate. 
  

This is big stuff.  This is just as big as saying that the sun does not revolve around the earth.  You want to say deal with it and get over it ?   If as in the most recent link provided by Richard is true, this has always been with us, but never understood, same as the earth revolves around the sun was always true, but only recently understood in the long scope of human history.  I've already made some adjustments in my thinking because of the most recent link provided by Richard.

You obviously have given this much thought already.  So how do we address this as a society with rules and norms, force acceptance and move on ?  Do I sound like I'm trolling now ?  Yes, I am, cuz you responded to me in that way.
 
I think you are missing the real transition that is going on.

  

So much for polite and honest discussion or in other words, never mind.  At least I made an effort to try to learn and gain an understanding of a revolutionary development that challenges thousands of years of conventional thinking. 

Have a nice day.


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 10:35am

 R_P wrote:

What if the state of mind has a biological source?

 
That was most helpful.  Time to reflect.
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 9:53am

 kurtster wrote:
We apparently have established a new dichotomy.  That being between the biological / factual and perceived.
 
What if the state of mind has a biological source?
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 9:49am

 kurtster wrote:
Yes, they were here at RP.

But my questions are serious.  Its not at all about disagreeing or delegitimizing the state of mind that is the source of this discussion.  That is real. 

We apparently have established a new dichotomy.  That being between the biological / factual and perceived.

What are the rules going to be ?  There has to be rules.  As in the link posted by Richard below, transgender is now a protected class.  It was his link that inspired me to ask. That means rules are now required.

I've been following this thread and get the idea and accept it.  Until seeing the link below I saw no reason to get into this thread.  Now I have one.

I think you are missing the real transition that is going on.

It's not so much about making the old distinctions between genders but changing the definitions of the genders as it is about making gender irrelevant, and recognizing that a lot of the assumptions our society (and its ancestors) made about gender were not accurate. That human variability is so large and traditional gender roles so restrictive that forcing people to fit within a defined role didn't match their individual natures.

You want to look at a baby's junk and know all you need to about a lot of that baby's future. The baby (and the person it grows up to be) doesn't get a say in that. And truthfully a lot of what you want to assume about that baby and that person isn't just wrong—it's not yours (or anyone else's) to decide.

There are times and places where biological gender matters, mostly medical situations. If you're not treating a patient...what's it to you?.
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 9:33am

 kurtster wrote:
I remember ... immediately was told I was crazy.

Now it appears to be true.

 
Well, yeah.
{#Lol}


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 9:30am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

those people who told you that.... were they local?

 
Yes, they were here at RP.

But my questions are serious.  Its not at all about disagreeing or delegitimizing the state of mind that is the source of this discussion.  That is real. 

We apparently have established a new dichotomy.  That being between the biological / factual and perceived.

What are the rules going to be ?  There has to be rules.  As in the link posted by Richard below, transgender is now a protected class.  It was his link that inspired me to ask. That means rules are now required.

I've been following this thread and get the idea and accept it.  Until seeing the link below I saw no reason to get into this thread.  Now I have one.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2018 - 2:08am

 kurtster wrote:

I remember some 10 or so years ago I put forth the notion somewhere here that reality is a local event and immediately was told I was crazy.

Now it appears to be true.

 
those people who told you that.... were they local?
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 22, 2018 - 11:46pm

So we now have two cases for gender, eh ?  The biological and self identity.

Or does the biological even matter anymore ?

Or after further thought, does gender only apply to the mental state ? 

If so, how do we describe the physical state and what do we call it ?

In that I mean, how can we ignore the physical reality ?

One is reality and the other is imagined / perceived ...

I remember some 10 or so years ago I put forth the notion somewhere here that reality is a local event and immediately was told I was crazy.

Now it appears to be true.
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 22, 2018 - 4:42pm

A check on bigotry...
A federal judge late Friday barred the federal government from implementing President Donald Trump’s ban on transgender members of the military, finding that the ban had to be subject to a careful court review before implementation because of the history of discrimination against transgender individuals.

U.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman of the Western District of Washington ruled that transgender people were a protected class and that the injunctions against the implementation of the ban that had been issued in December should remain in place. She wrote that there was a “long and well-recognized” history of discrimination and systemic oppression against transgender people, that discrimination against transgender people was clearly “unrelated to their ability to perform and contribute to society,” that transgender people have immutable characteristics and that they lacked relative political power.

“Transgender people have long been forced to live in silence, or to come out and face the threat of overwhelming discrimination,” Pechman wrote.

“The Court also rules that, because transgender people have long been subjected to systemic oppression and forced to live in silence, they are a protected class. Therefore, any attempt to exclude them from military service will be looked at with the highest level of care, and will be subject to the Court’s ‘strict scrutiny.’ This means that before Defendants can implement the Ban, they must show that it was sincerely motivated by compelling interests, rather than by prejudice or stereotype, and that it is narrowly tailored to achieve those interests,” Pechman wrote.

While Trump had tweeted that he consulted generals and military experts about the ban, Pechman wrote that the government had “failed to identify even one General or military expert he consulted, despite having been ordered to do so repeatedly.”

Noting that Pentagon officials were surprised by the announcement and that Defense Secretary Jim Mattis got a heads up only one day beforehand, the judge wrote that she “is led to conclude that the Ban was devised by the President, and the President alone.” (...)

meower

meower Avatar

Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female


Posted: Mar 27, 2018 - 5:15am

 R_P wrote:

 
Pakistan!


R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 27, 2018 - 2:55am

Marvia Malik - Pakistan TV airs first transgender anchor
meower

meower Avatar

Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 2:03pm

 sirdroseph wrote:
 meower wrote:

honestly, I think that you are the one with the phenomenon. No offense

I'm a woman. I love being a woman. I've struggled with what my body looks like, but I've never ever wanted a penis () I want the rights that men have, but I sure as SHIT don't want to be one. I appreciate my estrogen and everything else that keeps me from being a man.



 

Yea I guess we are getting our signals crossed. lol I have just never been one big on identity or culture, I guess it stems from my intense individualism. I think we are all too caught up in our geographical backgrounds, ethnicity, gender, sexuality and so forth. I don't love being a man anymore than I were a woman, I just happen to be one so I go through life as such and as for myself feel that way about all the labels. I am a big believer in nature whether it be natural herbs as opposed to pharmaceuticals or being able to freely express in all ways who you truly are and were born as and it seems contraindicated to freely express your natural born sexuality, but not accepting your natural born gender. Struggle with it, but I guarantee you this I have never treated anybody I come in contact any different than anyone else regardless of their gender real or perceived or anything else for that matter and that is far more important than whether I understand it or not.

 
that's your identity

and what might be good for you to come to understand is that for some people, there's a  difference between gender assignment and gender identity.


Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 12:15pm

 meower wrote:

we're talking about a person looking at their penis and hating it

we're talking about an 11 year old beginning to grow breasts and hearing about a period and becoming suicidal.

you're lucky. Those of us who's parts match up with their identity don't ever have to think about what we "feel" like bc what we are and who we know ourselves to be is congruent

 
I can't help but think about this in the context of someone who lives in a smaller society. It's one thing in the Big City to talk about gender fluidity but when you're on a Pacific island or a multi-acre farm - there's no cultural support for a "let's explore it" option and I'd be very surprised if there was a high suicide component because of that lack. In the Tipping Point, Gladwell tries to explore the idea of how on an island there was basically no suicide until someone hung themselves, and then it suddenly became part of the society there.

To what extent are people growing up influenced as to how they feel as a result of the diffuse acceptance/rejection/ignorance of ways of behaving around them?


R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 12:00pm

 sirdroseph wrote:
Funny you should use that as an example, A judge in a circuit court in Colorado just ruled that requiring females over the age of 9 to wear shirts is unconstitutional. Something I fully support, free the nipple! lol
 
Whether the judge rules or not, the norms will stay in place (and likely will do so for a long time esp. in some places). Now you can also imagine what happens when certain people want to choose which bathroom to enter or to enlist. Some people will (and have) put up barriers...

PS: ... because other people do not conform to their views (norms) on gender.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 11:51am

 R_P wrote:

You live in a society, and that society has gender norms. It should be rather obvious that we are to some extent shaped by those norms (often starting with blue and pink). It doesn't matter whether you yourself accept it or not, it will be impressed upon you or even forced if needed.

To give you a simple example of how these things come into play. If you were to take your lady to town during a sunny day, nobody would think twice if you walked through town in shorts and bare-breasted while your lady is dressed. Now reverse that.

As meower already pointed out (via an appeal to equal rights), in some ways the cards are stacked against one gender (let alone more complicated forms). That's why there is such a thing as feminism. To break barriers and tear down some privileges that one side has, while the other(s) has/have (not).

 




Funny you should use that as an example, A judge in a circuit court in Colorado just ruled that requiring females over the age of 9 to wear shirts is unconstitutional. Something I fully support, free the nipple! lol
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 26, 2018 - 11:49am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 sirdroseph wrote:
Yea I guess we are getting our signals crossed. lol I have just never been one big on identity or culture, I guess it stems from my intense individualism. I think we are all too caught up in our geographical backgrounds, ethnicity, gender, sexuality and so forth. I don't love being a man anymore than I were a woman, I just happen to be one so I go through life as such and as for myself feel that way about all the labels. I am a big believer in nature whether it be natural herbs as opposed to pharmaceuticals or being able to freely express in all ways who you truly are and were born as and it seems contraindicated to freely express your natural born sexuality, but not accepting your natural born gender. Struggle with it, but I guarantee you this I have never treated anybody I come in contact any different than anyone else regardless of their gender real or perceived or anything else for that matter and that is far more important than whether I understand it or not.

Our nature is more than the hardware we were born with.

You have accepted the gender your body has, and have never questioned it. That just means that you don't have a conflict with your gender identity, not that you don't have one. That process of acceptance wasn't conscious for most of us, as we never saw (or needed) an option. It's one of those things we don't notice until it doesn't happen.

 




I get that, it does help somewhat in my understanding.
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next