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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Immigration Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 34, 35, 36 ... 38, 39, 40  Next
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sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2012 - 5:13am

 kurtster wrote:

I'll disagree again, using the construction trades as an example.  While they may not require higher education, they usually require an apprenticeship leading towards accomplishment designations on master and journeyman for example.  There is a difference between wood worker and wood butcher for example.  Plumbers and electricians require higher education levels than highschool.  These trade jobs are were well paying.

An auto mechanic now needs a 4 year degree.  Welders go to school.  Same with HVAC.  College is not for everyone, nor is the end all fix all.  Some do not even want to go to college.  Many are happy working with their hands.  We have an oversupply of college grads now who cannot find work.  We used to have a vibrant vo - ed program in this country teaching a wide range of skills for those who were not college material or simply had no interest in college.

We are supposed to forego all of these skills that used to be taught at the vo - ed level to illegals ?  Is there something wrong with an American making 50k being a carpenter or painter ?  These crafts are now overrun with illegals doing the same for 20k and with inferior skills, doing crappy work because they are not dependent on a reputation to keep getting future work.  In painting for example, there are two levels, blow and go and painting.

 

You misunderstand me, I am not talking about these jobs you are talking about above. I do not consider them the low level jobs I meant. I am no policy wonk expert on this subject, but do not see these skill level jobs requiring certifications and appentiships being taken by illegals. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think there are a lot of illegals making 50k plus in these level of jobs you are talking about.
Also, you say the crafts are now being overrun doing shoddy work for lower rates. Does the country of origin preclude someone to do this? Cannot Americans do the same crafts for lower rates just as illegals? I think there are plenty of poverty stricken mericans that would fill this Wal-mart type pool of workers were there no illegals. I think this is a non-issue.

BTW I actually think the types of jobs you are talking about are more important than white collar college degree required jobs. These are true skills that will always be needed in our economy for the foreseeable future unlike the traditional 4 year college degree jobs which I think are becoming less and less important.


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2012 - 5:00am

 sirdroseph wrote:


Bottom line Kurt, all the jobs we are discussing in the context of illegals are lowest level jobs that do not even require a high school education. Quite frankly, whether these jobs are filled and by whom is a pretty low concern right now for the state of the economy. Getting more Americans educated to the point that they are over qualified for these jobs is where our focus should be. These types of jobs we are speaking of are neccessary, do not require any education or special skills and will always be filled by someone.

 
I'll disagree again, using the construction trades as an example.  While they may not require higher education, they usually require an apprenticeship leading towards accomplishment designations on master and journeyman for example.  There is a difference between wood worker and wood butcher for example.  Plumbers and electricians require higher education levels than highschool.  These trade jobs are were well paying.

An auto mechanic now needs a 4 year degree.  Welders go to school.  Same with HVAC.  College is not for everyone, nor is the end all fix all.  Some do not even want to go to college.  Many are happy working with their hands.  We have an oversupply of college grads now who cannot find work.  We used to have a vibrant vo - ed program in this country teaching a wide range of skills for those who were not college material or simply had no interest in college.

We are supposed to forego all of these skills that used to be taught at the vo - ed level to illegals ?  Is there something wrong with an American making 50k being a carpenter or painter ?  These crafts are now overrun with illegals doing the same for 20k and with inferior skills, doing crappy work because they are not dependent on a reputation to keep getting future work.  In painting for example, there are two levels, blow and go and painting.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2012 - 4:36am

 kurtster wrote:
So to really continue, let's talk about just what are the jobs that Americans alledgedly will not do that the illegals are taking.  I bet we find that the list is much shorter than many would have us think.

 

Bottom line Kurt, all the jobs we are discussing in the context of illegals are lowest level jobs that do not even require a high school education. Quite frankly, whether these jobs are filled and by whom is a pretty low concern right now for the state of the economy. Getting more Americans educated to the point that they are over qualified for these jobs and finding ways to create more higher level jobs is where are focus should be. These types of jobs we are speaking of are neccessary, do not require any education or special skills and will always be filled by someone.


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2012 - 3:56am

 aflanigan wrote:
Much of yesterday's discussion involved the notion of whether undocumented immigrants suppress wages.  Kurt seems to think so.  I wasn't  so sure since his evidence consisted of a handful of examples.  It seems that when you look at the big picture, illegal immigrants may actually raise wages overall:

Illegal immigration is a polarizing political and social issue. Many people hate illegal immigrants. Others regard them as an indispensable part of the American labor force. There are 10 million to 11 million illegal immigrants (for rather obvious reasons no one knows the exact number), and illegal immigrants are thought to amount to about 5 percent of the total labor force. Because they tend to do jobs that few Americans want, and because their wages are below average, many (though by no means all) economists believe that the illegal immigrants actually increase the wages of Americans (including legal immigrants). The reason is that the existence of a large body of low-wage workers increases the demand for goods and services both by reducing the cost of production and by their own purchases as consumers, and increased demand for goods and services translates into increased demand for labor and hence higher wages. This is not a certainty but seems a good guess of the effect of illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants do receive some social services, but fewer than citizens do. It is unclear whether they commit more crimes on average than citizens; they may commit fewer. Of course, some illegal immigrants are criminals, and the Obama administration has decided to focus the very limited resources of the federal immigration enforcement authorities on catching and deporting the criminals. Focusing on them and leaving the law-abiding (law-abiding except for the immigration law itself!) illegal immigrants seems a defensible policy. And certainly state and local law enforcement can assist the feds in apprehending illegal immigrants who commit crimes (being in this country without legal authorization is unlawful, but, with some exceptions, it is not criminal); nothing in the Arizona decision prevents that.


Justice Scalia is Upset about Illegal Immigration.  But Where's His Evidence?

 
A thoughtful take.  I have not gone to your link yet.

I'll reply with a couple of thoughts, again based upon observation more than anything.

Most of the illegals that come here, don't spend all the money that they make here.  A great deal of it, up to 50% or maybe more. gets sent back home to their families.  Or at least that has traditionally been the pattern over decades.  The money they make gets sent home for two purposes.  One is to help improve the family's life back home and the other is to raise money to finance the journey north for the rest of their family.

Traditionally, on payday, they usually head(ed) straight to the closest Western Union Office and send the money by wire to their families back home.  This is based upon my experience growing up in SoCal where this was the norm and where most of the illegals congregated, with of course the exception of Texas as well.  This pattern of behaviour is pretty well documented.  As a rule, the illegals were / are very thrifty.  They spend as little as possible during their stay in the states.  They do not aquire things because they are always moving around, due to the fact that they are living in the shadows and must be able to relocate very easily at a moments notice.  They may buy cars, but they don't buy TV's, washers and dryers, computers and big ticket items that settled people buy because they must remain portable.  In that sense, they do not contribute to our economy.  They are a drain on social services as well.  That is well documented and not necessary to discuss for this point.

The other aspect of wages and their effect of keeping wages down overall is pretty simple.  When the above point of the money being sent out of the country is factored in, it becomes more apparent.  With the exception of agriculture, they really do keep wages down with an artificial oversupply of cheap labor.  To further a meaningful discussion on this subject we need to talk about just what are the jobs they are doing that Americans won't, besides agriculture.

My observations tell me that the primary catagories are the construction trades, landscaping, hospitality, domestic home services and restuarants.  Please bring up more if I missed some.  These catagories are all ones that Americans will do, to the best of my knowledge.  They all require an able body and hard work, yet Americans will do these if they are available.  Many of these jobs used to be entry level jobs that our kids used to do in the summer to make money for school.  They are no longer available, especially in the southwestern border states because of the influx of illegals.  When traveling and staying in a motel anywhere, how many Americans are doing the housekeeping ?  Basically none.  Any traveler has noted this by now.  I have friends who have done this occasionally during hard times (here in Ohio) but find it very difficult to keep at because of language barriers, attitudes and the work ethic of the foreign born workers they have to deal with.

So to really continue, let's talk about just what are the jobs that Americans alledgedly will not do that the illegals are taking.  I bet we find that the list is much shorter than many would have us think.
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 27, 2012 - 5:06pm

Much of yesterday's discussion involved the notion of whether undocumented immigrants suppress wages.  Kurt seems to think so.  I wasn't  so sure since his evidence consisted of a handful of examples.  It seems that when you look at the big picture, illegal immigrants may actually raise wages overall:

Illegal immigration is a polarizing political and social issue. Many people hate illegal immigrants. Others regard them as an indispensable part of the American labor force. There are 10 million to 11 million illegal immigrants (for rather obvious reasons no one knows the exact number), and illegal immigrants are thought to amount to about 5 percent of the total labor force. Because they tend to do jobs that few Americans want, and because their wages are below average, many (though by no means all) economists believe that the illegal immigrants actually increase the wages of Americans (including legal immigrants). The reason is that the existence of a large body of low-wage workers increases the demand for goods and services both by reducing the cost of production and by their own purchases as consumers, and increased demand for goods and services translates into increased demand for labor and hence higher wages. This is not a certainty but seems a good guess of the effect of illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants do receive some social services, but fewer than citizens do. It is unclear whether they commit more crimes on average than citizens; they may commit fewer. Of course, some illegal immigrants are criminals, and the Obama administration has decided to focus the very limited resources of the federal immigration enforcement authorities on catching and deporting the criminals. Focusing on them and leaving the law-abiding (law-abiding except for the immigration law itself!) illegal immigrants seems a defensible policy. And certainly state and local law enforcement can assist the feds in apprehending illegal immigrants who commit crimes (being in this country without legal authorization is unlawful, but, with some exceptions, it is not criminal); nothing in the Arizona decision prevents that.


Justice Scalia is Upset about Illegal Immigration.  But Where's His Evidence?


Romulus

Romulus Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 1:54pm

Alot of the food supply is federally subsidized too, distorting the true cost. So its not a true free market in agriculture.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 1:50pm

 islander wrote:

Our food is so cheap it won't support the market cost to produce it.   Normally, this isn't really a big deal. When the cost of production and distribution of an item is more than the market is willing to pay for it in the face of competing goods, those items tend to just go away. But food is much more of a necessity, so we should be worried.  When we have fast food places offering up 'dollar menus' as competition for people making burgers at home, it forces stores to try and lower prices, they pressure producers who then trim where they can - usually labor.  We've become so used to cheap plentiful food, we're not willing to pay enough to support an individual to harvest that food.  We've done the same thing with DVD players and lots of consumer goods. But chasing the lowest dollar in our food supply will not end well.

 

Another point is that we now import over half of our food supply.

Fast food chains such as McDonalds have contract growers.  They do not participate in the open market as a rule.  This is how they maintain their supply, costs, product standards and consistency.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 1:31pm

 oldslabsides wrote:
*bump*

 
oldslabsides wrote:

What does it say about us that we can't find enough of our own citizens willing to perform manual labor to harvest our own food?

 

 
Our food is so cheap it won't support the market cost to produce it.   Normally, this isn't really a big deal. When the cost of production and distribution of an item is more than the market is willing to pay for it in the face of competing goods, those items tend to just go away. But food is much more of a necessity, so we should be worried.  When we have fast food places offering up 'dollar menus' as competition for people making burgers at home, it forces stores to try and lower prices, they pressure producers who then trim where they can - usually labor.  We've become so used to cheap plentiful food, we're not willing to pay enough to support an individual to harvest that food.  We've done the same thing with DVD players and lots of consumer goods. But chasing the lowest dollar in our food supply will not end well.
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 1:31pm

 kurtster wrote:

Boy have you got things backwards. 
 
Probably from all that time I spent on the tobacco farm sliding backwards on my ass between rows of tobacco plants.


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 12:59pm

 oldslabsides wrote:
*bump*

 
oldslabsides wrote:

What does it say about us that we can't find enough of our own citizens willing to perform manual labor to harvest our own food?

 

 

Well one thing that is germane is that about 5 years ago we crossed the point where more people live in cities than in rural places.  The labor has moved away basically.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 12:51pm

 Proclivities wrote:

These illegal aliens are hired by American citizens who run construction companies and other businesses.  The lawsuit you mentioned was carried out against an employer, not against some Central American government.  I will agree that the presence of cheap labor, whether performed by legal or illegal workers, has often lowered, or, at least, stagnated the wages for tradesmen, but all of the jobs have not been "taken over" by illegals.  Arguably, someone who knowingly hires illegal workers is doing more harm than the illegal workers themselves.

 
Absolutely.  The job providers create the magnet that attracts these people.  Those that hire them need to be punished, severely.  That is one reason a real guest worker program is needed so badly.
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 12:48pm

 steeler wrote:


That we're lazy?

 
from you of all people, I was hoping for a somewhat more elaborate response.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 12:47pm

 aflanigan wrote:
You're generalizing from one specific example, which I'm afraid leads to a rather simplistic view of the issue.

Non-unionized workers may demand high pay if their skill is in demand and there are not enough other skilled workers to meet the demand.  When enough people in search of a living wage learn how to paint, that changes the supply/demand balance.

What you're saying is you want some form of "protectionism" similar to tarriffs, to keep wages artificially high.  Why don't we expand this to every walk of life?  No more baseball players from the Dominican Republic, for example.

Unionization is the historically established way for workers to exert economic leverage to protect themselves from the vagaries of the supply/demand fluctuations in job markets.  Your "keep em all out" protectionism scheme is not really viable.  Not only is it prohibitively expensive, but employers and the job applicants they seek can, will, and do find ways around these barriers, be they physical or legal.

 
Protectionism is equated to keeping tresspassers or someone illegal from working ?

Boy have you got things backwards. 

I would love to see our country adopt the same immigration laws as Mexico.
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 12:46pm

 kurtster wrote:

I'm saying that in California in particular, illegals have quarmed these formerly excellent paying non union construction jobs.  Carpentry, drywall, masonry and painting to name a few.  I'm married to a displaced California painter.  Her ex won a suit against a former employer over being replaced by illegals, via age discrimination. My father is a licensed architect for the state of California.  I have much first hand knowledge of this.

We are not talking about union jobs.  A good non union painter in SoCal made $35 per hour and up without being in a union.  Non union carpenters averaged $25 and up for years.  These jobs have been taken over by the illegals.  There are some RPeeps who have made similar comments to this effect over the years.

And let's call them what they are, illegal.  Undocumented is bs.  Either you're legal or you're not.  Sorry if the truth hurts anyone's feelings on this, not.

 
These illegal aliens are hired by American citizens who run construction companies and other businesses.  The lawsuit you mentioned was carried out against an employer, not against some Central American government.  I will agree that the presence of cheap labor, whether performed by legal or illegal workers, has often lowered, or, at least, stagnated the wages for tradesmen, but all of the jobs have not been "taken over" by illegals.  Arguably, someone who knowingly hires illegal workers is doing more harm than the illegal workers themselves.


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 12:42pm

 islander wrote:

I used to be able to charge $75/hour for AutoCAD work. There weren't many people with the tools or skills to do the work and I was able to pick and chose not only the work but the customers. Times were good. Then ITT started graduating a lot of people with basic AutoCAD skills and Computers got cheaper. I had to drop my rates to stay competitive. Then the customers started deciding that if people would work cheap enough, they would be okay with lots of rework and oversight as long as they didn't have to pay more than about $15/hour. So I stopped doing that work and went back to school.

My competition wasn't illegal, but the lesson is similar. No one is guaranteed a wage for life. Things change, markets evolve and so must its players.

What people are willing to pay for food drives what the cost of production must be. The piece I linked to earlier showed farmers offering $160/day for workers and not being able to get any takers.  Illegal workers are just responding to a market condition that is ultimately driven by the customer.  Our government is the one who should be making policy that supports a safe and reasonable workplace, not structuring the competitive climate.

What you are seeing is the free market at work. 

 
No, what we are seeing is an influx of cheap illegal labor.  The reason the wages were high in the trades was due to the skill levels of jobs usually learned by the apprentice route.  Anyone can slap paint on a wall.  Anyone can hang drywall or butcher wood. But for a really pretty and well crafted job, it takes years to reach those levels.  I used to help out my wife on jobs when she was still able to work.  She had 25 years of experience painting professionally.  What I learned watching her was mindblowing.  The skills involved were of a high level, commanding  up to $75 hour depending on the types of finishes and treatments required and that is here in Cleveland, after leaving California, only 11 years ago.  She had also reached the level of a licensed general contractor in California, which requires much certification.  You get what you pay for.  Hire some illegals at $10 hour to do your painting, you can see the difference and it ain't pretty.

Your CAD argument is not valid to this point.  Your CAD argument is valid in the deliberate overtraining of skills at the college level to create an oversupply of skilled labor.  The Cleveland Clinic has done that here in town with the overtraining of medical administrators and technicians in an effort to lower labor costs.  They partnered with the local Community Colleges and set up aggressively recruited programs to create this over supply.  And it has worked, for the Clinic.

The whole purpose of legal immigration is to only admit people who have needed skills so as not to displace American workers and lower wages.  At least that was the original purpose.  We admit millions per year legally already.  These people are willing to do the right thing, abide by the law.  What we are doing with the illegals is a sucker punch in the gut of all here legally, including citizens.

And you want to pick apples ?  Pay em by the bushel, not by the hour or day.  You'll prolly find more people willing to do the labor.  Piece work is a thing of the past.
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 12:32pm

 kurtster wrote:

I'm saying that in California in particular, illegals have quarmed these formerly excellent paying non union construction jobs.  Carpentry, drywall, masonry and painting to name a few.  I'm married to a displaced California painter.  Her ex won a suit against a former employer over being replaced by illegals, via age discrimination. My father is a licensed architect for the state of California.  I have much first hand knowledge of this.

We are not talking about union jobs.  A good non union painter in SoCal made $35 per hour and up without being in a union.  Non union carpenters averaged $25 and up for years.  These jobs have been taken over by the illegals.  There are some RPeeps who have made similar comments to this effect over the years.

And let's call them what they are, illegal.  Undocumented is bs.  Either you're legal or you're not.  Sorry if the truth hurts anyone's feelings on this, not.

  You're generalizing from one specific example, which I'm afraid leads to a rather simplistic view of the issue.

Non-unionized workers may demand high pay if their skill is in demand and there are not enough other skilled workers to meet the demand.  When enough people in search of a living wage learn how to paint, that changes the supply/demand balance.

What you're saying is you want some form of "protectionism" similar to tarriffs, to keep wages artificially high.  Why don't we expand this to every walk of life?  No more baseball players from the Dominican Republic, for example.

Unionization is the historically established way for workers to exert economic leverage to protect themselves from the vagaries of the supply/demand fluctuations in job markets.  Your "keep em all out" protectionism scheme is not really viable.  Not only is it prohibitively expensive, but employers and the job applicants they seek can, will, and do find ways around these barriers, be they physical or legal.


steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 12:32pm

 oldslabsides wrote:
*bump*

 
oldslabsides wrote:

What does it say about us that we can't find enough of our own citizens willing to perform manual labor to harvest our own food?

 

 

That we're lazy?


Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 12:23pm

*bump*

 
oldslabsides wrote:

What does it say about us that we can't find enough of our own citizens willing to perform manual labor to harvest our own food?

 


islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 12:22pm

 kurtster wrote:


kurtster wrote:


The primary reason wages are so low for illegals is because they are illegal.  Establishing a guest worker program will raise wages because once legal, the workers can demand more money because there is no one behind them who is illegal and can undercut them.  We can do this without amnesty and without a path to citizenship.  I have no problems with a guest worker program as long as those who do not sign up and are caught are deported.


 
We agree on the policy. I don't think it will impact wages much. I do think it will improve the overall situation just by virtue of having a reasonable set of enforceable rules.  I think illegal activities tend to be inherently inefficient, they appear efficient by skirting the rules and not paying for the services they use (actually driving up the cost of most enforcement programs).
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 26, 2012 - 12:19pm

 kurtster wrote:

I'm saying that in California in particular, illegals have quarmed these formerly excellent paying non union construction jobs.  Carpentry, drywall, masonry and painting to name a few.  I'm married to a displaced California painter.  Her ex won a suit against a former employer over being replaced by illegals, via age discrimination. My father is a licensed architect for the state of California.  I have much first hand knowledge of this.

We are not talking about union jobs.  A good non union painter in SoCal made $35 per hour and up without being in a union.  Non union carpenters averaged $25 and up for years.  These jobs have been taken over by the illegals.  There are some RPeeps who have made similar comments to this effect over the years.

And let's call them what they are, illegal.  Undocumented is bs.  Either you're legal or you're not.  Sorry if the truth hurts anyone's feelings on this, not.

 
I used to be able to charge $75/hour for AutoCAD work. There weren't many people with the tools or skills to do the work and I was able to pick and chose not only the work but the customers. Times were good. Then ITT started graduating a lot of people with basic AutoCAD skills and Computers got cheaper. I had to drop my rates to stay competitive. Then the customers started deciding that if people would work cheap enough, they would be okay with lots of rework and oversight as long as they didn't have to pay more than about $15/hour. So I stopped doing that work and went back to school.

My competition wasn't illegal, but the lesson is similar. No one is guaranteed a wage for life. Things change, markets evolve and so must its players.

What people are willing to pay for food drives what the cost of production must be. The piece I linked to earlier showed farmers offering $160/day for workers and not being able to get any takers.  Illegal workers are just responding to a market condition that is ultimately driven by the customer.  Our government is the one who should be making policy that supports a safe and reasonable workplace, not structuring the competitive climate.

What you are seeing is the free market at work. 
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