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kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Dec 10, 2022 - 8:31am

 black321 wrote:


My personal opinion was that while I'm happy she is out of jail/russia, we got the raw end of the deal... which is fairly obvious. 
These things happen all the time, so it is important to set precedent.
And I do not believe the key issues in Palestine have to do with prisoner swaps. 



Bout has been in custody/prison for 14 years, right? My guess is that others have filled his shoes when it comes to arms dealing. His release is likely more of a PR win for Putin than anything else.

islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2022 - 8:12am

 Steely_D wrote:

And the media, including the internet, is a big problem there. You figure that the folks making the deal have considered the same issues as laypeople - plus knowing a lot of the behind-the-scenes details. So, making the deal wasn't something done superficially.

But the press, especially the press that's not good about doing their research, just about gathering shocked eyeballs, feels the financial drive to get you to read their exposé - no matter how poorly considered it is. And the internet rage machine jumps right in with their own opinion, straight from their armchairs and basements. And our enemies jump in, too, to make sure we feel bad about our nation.

So, do we assume we know more about the dealings of the government than the people actually doing the job? Of course we do! Cause, you know, 'Merica!



Well they are all elites and stuff but we stay at holiday inn express, so checkmate. 

Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2022 - 6:25am

 steeler wrote:

I do not agree with this reasoning writ large. Of course those in the government involved with the negotiations for the exchange know more about what led to the exchange than laypeople â€” or anyone not involved with this particular negotiation even if they have experience in other similar negotiations. If that alone carried the day, as you imply in your final paragraph, no one should ever question  a governmental action.  The Vietnam War proves otherwise. One of the primary jobs of the media is to ask questions of the government regarding actions taken or not taken. By design, it is to serve as a check on the three branches of government, which is why it also is tagged as being the Fourth Estate. 

Disclaimer: I am opining generally here on the role of the media and not on the merits of the Griner exchange. And I am talking about the professional media, not laypeople ranting on the internet from their armchairs and basements. 



No disagreement about the value of a legit Fourth Estate. However, that's not, e.g., FoxNews or The Epoch Times, etc.  But staid, considered, professional reportage isn't the norm any more. Instead, it's hyperbole and vitriol.

It's a common woe: what news source can you read that'll tell you what's happening without bias? Who replaces Uncle Walt?
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Dec 10, 2022 - 6:03am

 Steely_D wrote:

And the media, including the internet, is a big problem there. You figure that the folks making the deal have considered the same issues as laypeople - plus knowing a lot of the behind-the-scenes details. So, making the deal wasn't something done superficially.

But the press, especially the press that's not good about doing their research, just about gathering shocked eyeballs, feels the financial drive to get you to read their exposé - no matter how poorly considered it is. And the internet rage machine jumps right in with their own opinion, straight from their armchairs and basements. And our enemies jump in, too, to make sure we feel bad about our nation.

So, do we assume we know more about the dealings of the government than the people actually doing the job? Of course we do! Cause, you know, 'Merica!





I do not agree with this reasoning writ large. Of course those in the government involved with the negotiations for the exchange know more about what led to the exchange than laypeople â€” or anyone not involved with this particular negotiation even if they have experience in other similar negotiations. If that alone carried the day, as you imply in your final paragraph, no one should ever question  a governmental action.  The Vietnam War proves otherwise. One of the primary jobs of the media is to ask questions of the government regarding actions taken or not taken. By design, it is to serve as a check on the three branches of government, which is why it also is tagged as being the Fourth Estate. 

Disclaimer: I am opining generally here on the role of the media and not on the merits of the Griner exchange. And I am talking about the professional media, not laypeople ranting on the internet from their armchairs and basements. 

Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2022 - 5:29am

 haresfur wrote:

No it's every bit of the peace process that can't move forward if everyone is too afraid of looking like they got a bad deal so no one is willing to bend enough to make a deal.


And the media, including the internet, is a big problem there. You figure that the folks making the deal have considered the same issues as laypeople - plus knowing a lot of the behind-the-scenes details. So, making the deal wasn't something done superficially.

But the press, especially the press that's not good about doing their research, just about gathering shocked eyeballs, feels the financial drive to get you to read their exposé - no matter how poorly considered it is. And the internet rage machine jumps right in with their own opinion, straight from their armchairs and basements. And our enemies jump in, too, to make sure we feel bad about our nation.

So, do we assume we know more about the dealings of the government than the people actually doing the job? Of course we do! Cause, you know, 'Merica!

haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2022 - 2:23am

 black321 wrote:


My personal opinion was that while I'm happy she is out of jail/russia, we got the raw end of the deal... which is fairly obvious. 
These things happen all the time, so it is important to set precedent.
And I do not believe the key issues in Palestine have to do with prisoner swaps. 


No it's every bit of the peace process that can't move forward if everyone is too afraid of looking like they got a bad deal so no one is willing to bend enough to make a deal.

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 9, 2022 - 1:26pm

 haresfur wrote:

Well I think it is pretty sick for people to worry that it was a horribly bad deal swapping someone who had already served ten years in order to get a person who had committed a pretty minor, if stupid, crime out of a Russian prison so it shouldn't have been done. I mean, so what? Is American pride so freaking fragile that fear of looking like you didn't get as much out of a deal as someone else means paralysis is a better option?

I once read an article where the author said one of the big reasons the Israeli-Palestinian  conflict will never end is that both sides are afraid of looking like they got the worse deal in any agreement.


My personal opinion was that while I'm happy she is out of jail/russia, we got the raw end of the deal... which is fairly obvious. 
These things happen all the time, so it is important to set precedent.
And I do not believe the key issues in Palestine have to do with prisoner swaps. 

haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 9, 2022 - 12:52pm

 black321 wrote:


No, not only republicans.

Well I think it is pretty sick for people to worry that it was a horribly bad deal swapping someone who had already served ten years in order to get a person who had committed a pretty minor, if stupid, crime out of a Russian prison so it shouldn't have been done. I mean, so what? Is American pride so freaking fragile that fear of looking like you didn't get as much out of a deal as someone else means paralysis is a better option?

I once read an article where the author said one of the big reasons the Israeli-Palestinian  conflict will never end is that both sides are afraid of looking like they got the worse deal in any agreement.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Dec 9, 2022 - 12:50pm

What kind of a deal is it to swap Brittney Griner, a basketball player
who openly hates our Country, for the man known as “The Merchant of
Death,” who is one of the biggest arms dealers anywhere in the World,
and responsible for tens of thousands of deaths and horrific injuries.

Why wasn’t former Marine Paul Whelan included in this totally one-sided
transaction? He would have been let out for the asking. What a “stupid”
and unpatriotic embarrassment for the USA!!!
Small fry

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 9, 2022 - 12:34pm

 kurtster wrote:

I can't wait to see his new approval rating taken after the prisoner swap.

It will be interesting since it seems that only republicans are upset with it.


No, not only republicans.
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 9, 2022 - 12:28pm

 kurtster wrote:

I can't wait to see his new approval rating taken after the prisoner swap.


And yet he'll still be President. 
Not even impeached twice nor stealing classified documents to his golf resort.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 9, 2022 - 12:09pm

 black321 wrote:
  Wow!  
That's as impressive as Biden's demographic approval trends
https://www.reuters.com/graphi...
 
I can't wait to see his new approval rating taken after the prisoner swap.

It will be interesting since it seems that only republicans are upset with it.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 9, 2022 - 11:10am

 islander wrote:



https://slate.com/news-and-pol...


Kyrsten Sinema Has Brought the Entire State of Arizona Together (in Thinking She Sucks)





Wow!  
That's as impressive as Biden's demographic approval trends
https://www.reuters.com/graphi...


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Dec 9, 2022 - 10:30am

 westslope wrote:
But as long as US voters see and understand politics through the lense of sporting competition with zero-sum outcomes, nothing will change and the US political system will remain broken.

Appeasement! Surrender monkeys!
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 9, 2022 - 9:51am

 westslope wrote:

It is easy to understand why Arizona Sen. Kyrsten Sinema is popular with voters.




https://slate.com/news-and-pol...


Kyrsten Sinema Has Brought the Entire State of Arizona Together (in Thinking She Sucks)



islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 9, 2022 - 9:48am

 oldviolin wrote:

So, trying to understand here. Not really informed about this particular person. What makes her an asshole? Lack of lockstep? Having different opinions? Why are alternatives not a part of the debates? Just curious why some people believe that there is only one way to think?


More like she promised to be one thing to the voters in her district and spoke out on goals and ideals that they seemed to support. But once elected, she did a 180 and either gave up on them or actively opposed them. Lots of questions about why, but money does appear to be involved. 
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Dec 9, 2022 - 9:25am

 westslope wrote:


Perhaps fundamental constitutional change is required?   Otherwise the "broken partisan system" will not heal itself.

But as long as US voters see and understand politics through the lense of sporting competition with zero-sum outcomes, nothing will change and the US political system will remain broken.



Additionally, that will continue as long as there is private money in the process.
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Dec 9, 2022 - 9:03am

 black321 wrote:

wish all politicians would announce their independence from the broken partisan system.



Perhaps fundamental constitutional change is required?   Otherwise the "broken partisan system" will not heal itself.

But as long as US voters see and understand politics through the lense of sporting competition with zero-sum outcomes, nothing will change and the US political system will remain broken.

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Dec 9, 2022 - 9:01am

 Red_Dragon wrote:
It is easy to understand why Arizona Sen. Kyrsten Sinema is popular with voters.

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 9, 2022 - 8:33am

wish all politicians would announce their independence from the broken partisan system.
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