I'm asking a question. A very simple question. It seems to me to be in very plain language. Most of the respondents are trying very hard to answer some different question, and are failing/refusing to answer the one asked. That question has an obvious answerâwell, obvious to me anywayâbut that doesn't make it rhetorical. I'm trying to provoke some introspection, some reflection on what the goal of a legal system should be. Is it there to enforce a political orthodoxy and punish those with different views, or is it there to protect the rights of everyone? I seem to have mostly failed, and I find this disheartening.

A-ha! An Objectivist! I knew it!

Lazy8

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male

Posted: Sep 4, 2023 - 11:40am

haresfur wrote:

Are you saying they shouldn't have given him leniency for claiming to be contrite and saying he had given up politics in support of that?

I'm asking a question. A very simple question. It seems to me to be in very plain language. Most of the respondents are trying very hard to answer some different question, and are failing/refusing to answer the one asked.

That question has an obvious answer—well, obvious to me anyway—but that doesn't make it rhetorical. I'm trying to provoke some introspection, some reflection on what the goal of a legal system should be. Is it there to enforce a political orthodoxy and punish those with different views, or is it there to protect the rights of everyone?

I seem to have mostly failed, and I find this disheartening.

kcar

Posted: Sep 3, 2023 - 7:43pm

islander wrote:

If anything it indicates that the sentence was reduced to be consistent with other lower than recommended sentences of other 1/6 convicts. Which seems odd in general.

He certainly can have regret for his actions and still feel that trump won. But it makes the argument for leniency weak, as one is a justification for the other - how much regret can he have if he is still claiming hold to the wrong justification he used to riot in the first place?

Again, the politics and the crime are pretty interlinked here. Are we to absolve him of the crime because it was motivated by his politics?

I think in a calmer moment Pezzola would say that he believes Trump won but regrets resorting to violence in order to express that belief.

He was acquitted of the seditious conspiracy charge so the court was not sentencing him for criminally acting on his political beliefs.

Whether people want to doubt him in the court of public opinion is another matter. Personally, I'm willing to believe the sincerity of his contrition. I'm guessing he's clinging to the notion that Trump won out of an attempt to salvage some confused justification for going to that rally.

Either way it's f*#king awful that Trump screwed up so many people's lives because he couldn't handle losing like a man. What a disgusting, loathsome creature.

islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male

Posted: Sep 3, 2023 - 2:49pm

kcar wrote:

Not to beat a nearly dead horse but I don't believe the article provides sufficient evidence for a reader to say that the judge's sentencing decision was influenced by Pezzola's claim to have given up politics. Judge Kellly might have ignored that statement entirely. Maybe he didn't.

I think the NPR journalist Jaclyn Diaz found it newsworthy and revealing that Pezzola yelled "Trump won!" after being sentenced. Diaz might have been trying to suggest to her readers that Pezzola's claim to have given up politics was insincere.

I think it's quite possible that Pezzola truly regretted his criminal actions (and the effects it had on his family) but still sincerely believed that Trump won. He's got a right to think both things at the same time. Again, personally, I wonder how willfully uninformed he's chosen to be when it comes to his opinion on the 2020 election results.

kcar

Posted: Sep 3, 2023 - 2:39pm

islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male

Posted: Sep 3, 2023 - 2:16pm

Lazy8 wrote:

Imma repeat the question: should the defendant's politics enter into the way we're treated in court?

Generally - No. I would add that is conditional on your politics not leading you to commit crimes to support your candidates/ideals. If my politics are 'my candidate wins or we riot until they we overrule the will of the people', then yeah, that impacts how you get treated in court. In this case, if it weren't for his politics, he probably wouldn't be in court, so it's difficult to extract the politics from the crime.

In this particular case, he pleaded for leniency for his crimes, that were in part inspired by his politics. He got a somewhat lessened sentence presumably due to his plea which included "I have given up on politics", maybe meaning he learned that politics don't trump (ha) law?. He then yelled "Trump won", which seems to indicate he hasn't really given up politics. So given that he has demonstrated that his plea for leniency wasn't sincere, should he still be granted leniency?

haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male

Posted: Sep 3, 2023 - 1:57pm

kcar wrote:

I'm not sure where we're agreeing and disagreeing here...

If a convicted individual states before he's sentenced that he's given up politics, that statementâsincere or notâshouldn't affect the terms of sentencing or the individual's treatment in court.

Peaceful participation in politics should not cause someone to be treated differently in court. Violent participation in politics, including "assaulting, resisting or impeding certain officers and robbery involving government property", should cause the convicted to receive a serious prison sentence. Those physical acts deserve a serious sentence whether they're politically motivated/based or not.

As for Pezzola's beliefs: he had the right to peacefully protest the outcome of the election and the transition of power to Biden. He has the right to continue to believe that Trump won and that the election was stolen from Trump. He has the right to voice those beliefs today, although he was likely exposing himself to a contempt of court charge for yelling in open court. He'd likely been risking the same charge if he'd yelled, "Radiohead is the bee's knees!"

He was given a shorter sentence 9 years shorter than the one recommended by prosecutors in part because he expressed remorse for his physical actionsânot for his political beliefs or his supposed abandonment of them, AFAICT. I don't see how a reader of the NPR piece can believe that Pezzola was treated differently for stating that he had given up politics.

To Judge Kelly he said: "I stand before you with a heart full of regret."

He said, regarding his actions on Jan. 6, "This was the worst, most regrettable decision of my life. I fully realize the gravity of my actions."

Kelly also had this to say about Pezzola's sentence:

Kelly had previously said that he weighed the sentences of other Jan. 6 defendants and was working to avoid large sentencing disparities. This is part of why he gave sentences far below guidelines and the government's recommendations.

But he brought up giving up politics in his request for leniency. Part and parcel of the same thing - at his instigation. Shouting that trump won, in open court at a sentencing hearing with widespread interest and news coverage, is inherently a political act, not just a political belief.

In any case, it made no difference to his sentence. It just means that he is another right-wing hypocrite.

Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male

Posted: Sep 3, 2023 - 1:48pm

kcar wrote:

As for Pezzola's beliefs: he had the right to peacefully protest the outcome of the election and the transition of power to Biden. He has the right to continue to believe that Trump won and that the election was stolen from Trump. He has the right to voice those beliefs today, although he was likely exposing himself to a contempt of court charge for yelling in open court. He'd likely been risking the same charge if he'd yelled, "Radiohead is the bee's knees!"

There's no room in this forum for thoughtful analysis. Please don't set a precedent.

kcar

Posted: Sep 3, 2023 - 11:56am

Lazy8 wrote:

Go read the post again, in particular the post I was responding to.

He wasn't treated differently for yelling "Trump won!" on his way to prison, if anything he was treated differently for claiming to have given up politics.

The question remains: should participation in politics affect how defendants are treated in court?

To Judge Kelly he said: "I stand before you with a heart full of regret."

He said, regarding his actions on Jan. 6, "This was the worst, most regrettable decision of my life. I fully realize the gravity of my actions."

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male

Posted: Sep 3, 2023 - 4:22am
Lazy8 wrote: Imma repeat the question: should the defendant's politics enter into the way we're treated in court? I think you got the answer which is pretty clear to me anyway. They were all the same, too.

haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male

Posted: Sep 3, 2023 - 1:24am
Lazy8 wrote: Imma repeat the question: should the defendant's politics enter into the way we're treated in court? Are you saying they shouldn't have given him leniency for claiming to be contrite and saying he had given up politics in support of that?

Lazy8

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male

Posted: Sep 2, 2023 - 11:29pm

kcar wrote:

Here's a direct quote from the NPR article rgio linked to:

In his plea for leniency to the court, Pezzola said he had given up politics, yet as he was being escorted out of the courtroom he shouted, "Trump won!" repeating the baseless claim of election fraud that led rioters to storm the Capitol on Jan. 6.

Pezzola's sentence had already been handed down, so it's not clear to me that he was treated differently because he yelled "Trump won!" as he was led away. His yell does cast doubt on the sincerity of his claim to have given up politics and his plea for leniency.

It also makes me wonder what it would take for Pezzola to accept the fact that Trump lost fair and square. Apparently having his life and his family's lives turned upside down by a lengthy court case didn't shake his beliefs. I guess he didn't have time to read up on the Jan. 6 committee's findings or reportage on the validity of the election. He's gonna have lots of time to do that now.

Sure, he has the right to believe what he wants. He's not being put away for his beliefs. He got nine years for "assaulting, resisting or impeding certain officers and robbery involving government property. Unlike his co-defendants in the Proud Boys seditious conspiracy case, Pezzola was acquitted of that charge."

Lazy8

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male

Posted: Sep 2, 2023 - 11:19pm
islander wrote: "In his plea for leniency to the court, Pezzola said he had given up politics," Imma repeat the question: should the defendant's politics enter into the way we're treated in court?

kcar

Posted: Sep 2, 2023 - 10:12pm

Lazy8 wrote:

He's allowed to be contrite about his actions and still have political beliefs, even daffy ones. Or should the defendant's politics enter into the way we're treated in court?

islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male

Posted: Sep 2, 2023 - 10:08pm
Lazy8 wrote: He's allowed to be contrite about his actions and still have political beliefs, even daffy ones. Or should the defendant's politics enter into the way we're treated in court? "In his plea for leniency to the court, Pezzola said he had given up politics,"

Lazy8

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male

Posted: Sep 2, 2023 - 8:58pm

Steely_D wrote:

A wise judge would've brought him back in and said, "so your whole regretful speech was a lie, it seems. First, now there's no reason to be lenient if you haven't repented. Second, putting on an act for the court is reprehensible. Let's take your sentence to what the prosecution recommended in the first place, then: twenty years. And - no, he didn't win and neither do you. Good day sir. I said, good day!"

He's allowed to be contrite about his actions and still have political beliefs, even daffy ones. Or should the defendant's politics enter into the way we're treated in court?

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan

Posted: Sep 2, 2023 - 6:31pm
rgio wrote: I don't disagree, but a judge needs to consider the facts, and his repentant speech, and that of anyone else on trial, is theory. The sentence was in line with others...so OK. What that guy did...was screw every other Jan 6 accused from being able to ask for leniency...even if they are truly sorry for what they did. I don't think any of them are.

rgio

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male

Posted: Sep 2, 2023 - 5:34pm

Steely_D wrote:

I don't disagree, but a judge needs to consider the facts, and his repentant speech, and that of anyone else on trial, is theory. The sentence was in line with others...so OK.

What that guy did...was screw every other Jan 6 accused from being able to ask for leniency...even if they are truly sorry for what they did.

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan

Posted: Sep 2, 2023 - 4:08pm

Steely_D wrote:

Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male

Posted: Sep 2, 2023 - 4:05pm

rgio wrote:

A Proud Boy pleaded for leniency from a judge, then yelled 'Trump won' on his way out

In his plea for leniency to the court, Pezzola said he had given up politics, yet as he was being escorted out of the courtroom he shouted, "Trump won!"

Queue the Stones...

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