I think your basic premise is flawed. When I was a kid there was this thing called ministerial accountability. It meant a minister resigned, not just when he made a serious mistake, but when anyone in his department made a mistake. When you work in government, you are there to serve the country. Not the other way around.
The point is, elected officials and civil servants should be held to the highest standards possible. Here you are giving them a pass, because, well, peace and calm and all that. Wouldn't want to upset anyone. That sounds like a fast road to corruption and hollowing out of government institutions.
Have you read what's happening in Canada lately?! Literal corruption at every level. And citizens who continue to support the govt in power, no matter what the deed. Taxes going up everywhere, along with govt bloat & waste. Appointing ethics overseers from literally the family of sitting MPs accused of corruption. We are truly fucked until we can finally replace the govt.
I think your basic premise is flawed. When I was a kid there was this thing called ministerial accountability. It meant a minister resigned, not just when he made a serious mistake, but when anyone in his department made a mistake. When you work in government, you are there to serve the country. Not the other way around.
The point is, elected officials and civil servants should be held to the highest standards possible. Here you are giving them a pass, because, well, peace and calm and all that. Wouldn't want to upset anyone. That sounds like a fast road to corruption and hollowing out of government institutions.
This part right there is the really important bit. The idea that we can't hold Trump (or anyone else) accountable because there would be a bunch of people rioting in their defense is actually worse than the idea that "it's legal when the president does it".
...when Mr Trump reimbursed his lawyer, the record for the payment says it was for legal fees. Prosecutors say this amounts to Mr Trump falsifying business records, which is a misdemeanour - a criminal offence - in New York.
While the press and all American media are getting hysterical about, those seem to be the facts the whole upheaval is based on? - Honestly, I can't tell from where I roam...
A former president of the United States, duly elected, had every aspect of his tawdry life combed over by prosecutors eager to get him on something. This is all they got. And they're trying to use the full power of the state of New York to put him in prison for it so they can take him out of the game. They can do this because the law is so convoluted, so arbitrary, so absurdly complex that at some level if you look long enough, squint hard enough, everything anyone does can be seen as a violation of some law. Everything. By anyone.
The president in office now. Your next presidential candidate. You.
I think your basic premise is flawed. When I was a kid there was this thing called ministerial accountability. It meant a minister resigned, not just when he made a serious mistake, but when anyone in his department made a mistake. When you work in government, you are there to serve the country. Not the other way around.
The point is, elected officials and civil servants should be held to the highest standards possible. Here you are giving them a pass, because, well, peace and calm and all that. Wouldn't want to upset anyone. That sounds like a fast road to corruption and hollowing out of government institutions.
For the record, the Clinton investigation was a 'witch hunt', but at the end of the day, he lied under oath and should have seen harsher consequences for it. Also, Reagan probably deserved more investigation for Iran/Contra and should also have been prosecuted, and Nixon... well yeah, he really started this whole "if the president does it, it's legal" nonsense. Bush 1 was probably too smart to put himself in a position that he would have dirty hands. Bush 2 was probably surrounded by people who forced him to dirty his hands, but they never got to the point he needed to be thrown under the bus. He should still be prosecuted if it comes to light. Obama was probably clean because he knew he had to be, and Carter was clean because he just was. Ford... ?
The Trump Hush money thing has a few facets (and it's also certainly a 'witch hunt'). Paying some one not to say something or to enter a NDA is legal. Paying someone to cover up a crime is not legal (an affair with a porn star is not a crime). Campaign finance laws are certainly complex, but they are something that every campaign deals with and they should have lawyers on hand to help interpret. I have no idea if what Trump did falls in the realm of crime here, but like Clinton, even if it's the result of a witch hunt, he's responsible if a crime was committed.
I'm honestly much more interested in the outcome of the Georgia grand Jury. That one seems like a pretty obvious crime. Unfortunately after this it's going to look like a pile on. But again, so what. If there is a crime involved, they should be prosecuted.
Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth
Posted:
Mar 31, 2023 - 2:38pm
Lazy8 wrote:
Woo hoo, you got a scalp!
. . .
But you put one on the boards for your team! Why should this bother you? He needs to be destroyed by any means necessary!
I want you all popping champagne corks to think about this about five minutes longer.
. . .
You (your tribe) is starting a war. There will be further casualties. Anyoneânot just someone in a left-leaning one-party stateâcan play this game. Descending to this third-world level of bloodsport politics raises the stakes in elections: winner gets to punish the loser, loser gets to write a memoir in prison. That means if you enter the game you win at all costs. Your very life may depend on it.
You paint entirely with too broad of a brush here. It is tiresome and detracts from any valid points you might be making. It should not need to be stated, but the RP forum is not a monolith. You apparently see everyone â but yourself, of course â as being reduced to and by tribalism, and lacking discernment.. That is not the case. You really should acknowledge that. Wield a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.
I knew such a meme would eventually show up. Paying "hush money" to someone is not illegal in itself, diverting campaign funds to do so apparently is. But you know that.
So how many former presidents did Newt send to prison? Round numbers.
Too bad you forgot about Ken Starr and the non-stop politically motivated investigations into the Clintons. Look up the term "perjury trap" to refresh your memory. Starr would have indicted Clinton after the White House if he'd had enough evidence.
The Democratic party leadership doesn't control or influence what Alvin Bragg or Fani Willis does about Trump's past actions. This is not a matter of "your side got one" even though you tend to reduce law and politics to one monolithic power-hungry punitive force.
You don't have sufficient information or legal knowledge at this time to pass an informed judgement on the 34 counts of indictment.
I knew such a meme would eventually show up. Paying "hush money" to someone is not illegal in itself, diverting campaign funds to do so apparently is. But you know that.
A much stronger case than the one alleged against Trump.
Sorry, all us Louisiana folks just sit back and remember Edwin Edwards.
Trump is a clumsy vulgar buffoon compared to this guy. Actually, compared to anyone.
A much stronger case than the one alleged against Trump.
Oh, my history must be bad... when was he president?
Don't try and place Edwards in the same league as an actual elected (former) president. There is no precedent for what we are seeing right now as has been amply pointed out in both the right and left leaning media.
A much stronger case than the one alleged against Trump.
A number of Senators and members of Congress (from both parties) have been indicted for campaign finance violations; Edwards may be the only other one who was paying "hush-money" with it. On a side note, I saw Edwards in a nearby Food Lion a couple of years ago , buying mostly Stouffer's frozen dinners. The cashier clearly had no idea who he was, and he's probably best forgotten anyhow.
Still, the "unprecedented" part is Trump being a former US President. Former Presidents have been indicted (or equivalent) in other countries though - France, Israel, South Korea among them, if memory serves...
Woo hoo, you got a scalp! Well, part of one. When he walks after the charges are dropped or the jury refuses to convict all you'll have is a handful of whatever he coats his combover with, and the NY DA will look like a petty, vindictive political hack. Which seems to be part of the job description for a NY prosecutor, but I digress. And that, in my view, is the best possible outcome for this little exercise of raw power. His lawyer paid off the porn star he porked to keep her quiet....which isn't illegal. His company reimbursed him and used a fake line item to cover it...which is a misdemeanor, and not necessarily Trump's responsibility. Unless the payment was made in the furtherance of another crime, which makes it a felony. So they went spelunking in the law to find a way for this to be a crime. They apparently settled on the loan the lawyer made being a political contribution over the legal limit. Which wouldn't be a NY crime (assuming that's how some court somewhere would interpret it, as a crime), it would be a federal crime, and the FEC (the agency charged with prosecuting political crimes) decided it wasn't. When Bill Clinton testified that he did not have sex with that woman in a civil deposition, under oath, he lied. That's perjury. A crime. He was impeached for it, tried, and skated. After his term of office he was disbarred from the Arkansas bar but not prosecuted for the actual crime. It was, apparently, based on behavior too far removed from actual criminal behavior—a meta-crime. Trump is being charged with a meta-meta-meta crime. But you put one on the boards for your team! Why should this bother you? He needs to be destroyed by any means necessary! I want you all popping champagne corks to think about this about five minutes longer. A former president of the United States, duly elected, had every aspect of his tawdry life combed over by prosecutors eager to get him on something. This is all they got. And they're trying to use the full power of the state of New York to put him in prison for it so they can take him out of the game. They can do this because the law is so convoluted, so arbitrary, so absurdly complex that at some level if you look long enough, squint hard enough, everything anyone does can be seen as a violation of some law. Everything. By anyone. The president in office now. Your next presidential candidate. You. Oh, it I couldn't possibly be a target for this kind of action! I'm not a sleazy politician/real estate developer/mob boss. This couldn't happen to me. Oh yeah? Who have you pissed off lately? Trump is a wealthy man with the resources to pay for a vigorous defense, and people who would defend him even if he had shot someone on 5th Avenue in broad daylight. What have you got? You and anyone who might be a political threat to those in power ought to be very frightened by this, even if you or they have the means to fight it. For Trump this is all part of the cost of doing business. It would ruin most people, even if they prevailed in court. And if one trip to the courthouse didn't do it another couple might. What does this mean for political participation in this country? At the retail level in politics (where I operate) this scares off decent people. All it leaves are egotists convinced their reputations can't be touched, fanatics who will pay any price to hold the reins of power, or the very naive who may not be able to handle the blows they'll take once they step into the arena. You (your tribe) is starting a war. There will be further casualties. Anyone—not just someone in a left-leaning one-party state—can play this game. Descending to this third-world level of bloodsport politics raises the stakes in elections: winner gets to punish the loser, loser gets to write a memoir in prison. That means if you enter the game you win at all costs. Your very life may depend on it. There are precedents for this, and they aren't encouraging.
Woo hoo, you got a scalp! Well, part of one. When he walks after the charges are dropped or the jury refuses to convict all you'll have is a handful of whatever he coats his combover with, and the NY DA will look like a petty, vindictive political hack. Which seems to be part of the job description for a NY prosecutor, but I digress. And that, in my view, is the best possible outcome for this little exercise of raw power.
His lawyer paid off the porn star he porked to keep her quiet....which isn't illegal. His company reimbursed him and used a fake line item to cover it...which is a misdemeanor, and not necessarily Trump's responsibility. Unless the payment was made in the furtherance of another crime, which makes it a felony. So they went spelunking in the law to find a way for this to be a crime.
They apparently settled on the loan the lawyer made being a political contribution over the legal limit. Which wouldn't be a NY crime (assuming that's how some court somewhere would interpret it, as a crime), it would be a federal crime, and the FEC (the agency charged with prosecuting political crimes) decided it wasn't.
When Bill Clinton testified that he did not have sex with that woman in a civil deposition, under oath, he lied. That's perjury. A crime. He was impeached for it, tried, and skated. After his term of office he was disbarred from the Arkansas bar but not prosecuted for the actual crime. It was, apparently, based on behavior too far removed from actual criminal behaviorâa meta-crime.
Trump is being charged with a meta-meta-meta crime.
But you put one on the boards for your team! Why should this bother you? He needs to be destroyed by any means necessary!
I want you all popping champagne corks to think about this about five minutes longer.
A former president of the United States, duly elected, had every aspect of his tawdry life combed over by prosecutors eager to get him on something. This is all they got. And they're trying to use the full power of the state of New York to put him in prison for it so they can take him out of the game. They can do this because the law is so convoluted, so arbitrary, so absurdly complex that at some level if you look long enough, squint hard enough, everything anyone does can be seen as a violation of some law. Everything. By anyone.
The president in office now. Your next presidential candidate. You.
Oh, it I couldn't possibly be a target for this kind of action! I'm not a sleazy politician/real estate developer/mob boss. This couldn't happen to me.
Oh yeah? Who have you pissed off lately?
Trump is a wealthy man with the resources to pay for a vigorous defense, and people who would defend him even if he had shot someone on 5th Avenue in broad daylight. What have you got?
You and anyone who might be a political threat to those in power ought to be very frightened by this, even if you or they have the means to fight it. For Trump this is all part of the cost of doing business. It would ruin most people, even if they prevailed in court. And if one trip to the courthouse didn't do it another couple might.
What does this mean for political participation in this country? At the retail level in politics (where I operate) this scares off decent people. All it leaves are egotists convinced their reputations can't be touched, fanatics who will pay any price to hold the reins of power, or the very naive who may not be able to handle the blows they'll take once they step into the arena.
You (your tribe) is starting a war. There will be further casualties. Anyoneânot just someone in a left-leaning one-party stateâcan play this game. Descending to this third-world level of bloodsport politics raises the stakes in elections: winner gets to punish the loser, loser gets to write a memoir in prison. That means if you enter the game you win at all costs. Your very life may depend on it.
There are precedents for this, and they aren't encouraging.
First off, we have not seen, or heard, the charges yet as the indictment is still sealed. 2nd, although this first indictment may be in the scale of minor, I believe there will be several much more serious indictments ahead. There may even be some politics involved, but in the bigger picture, I believe the DOJ and other arms of law enforcement would not be chasing the smoke unless there is a visible fire causing it all.
Patience grasshopper, you are still leaving footprints on the rice paper.
Woo hoo, you got a scalp! Well, part of one. When he walks after the charges are dropped or the jury refuses to convict all you'll have is a handful of whatever he coats his combover with, and the NY DA will look like a petty, vindictive political hack. Which seems to be part of the job description for a NY prosecutor, but I digress. And that, in my view, is the best possible outcome for this little exercise of raw power.
His lawyer paid off the porn star he porked to keep her quiet....which isn't illegal. His company reimbursed him and used a fake line item to cover it...which is a misdemeanor, and not necessarily Trump's responsibility. Unless the payment was made in the furtherance of another crime, which makes it a felony. So they went spelunking in the law to find a way for this to be a crime.
They apparently settled on the loan the lawyer made being a political contribution over the legal limit. Which wouldn't be a NY crime (assuming that's how some court somewhere would interpret it, as a crime), it would be a federal crime, and the FEC (the agency charged with prosecuting political crimes) decided it wasn't.
When Bill Clinton testified that he did not have sex with that woman in a civil deposition, under oath, he lied. That's perjury. A crime. He was impeached for it, tried, and skated. After his term of office he was disbarred from the Arkansas bar but not prosecuted for the actual crime. It was, apparently, based on behavior too far removed from actual criminal behaviorâa meta-crime.
Trump is being charged with a meta-meta-meta crime.
But you put one on the boards for your team! Why should this bother you? He needs to be destroyed by any means necessary!
I want you all popping champagne corks to think about this about five minutes longer.
A former president of the United States, duly elected, had every aspect of his tawdry life combed over by prosecutors eager to get him on something. This is all they got. And they're trying to use the full power of the state of New York to put him in prison for it so they can take him out of the game. They can do this because the law is so convoluted, so arbitrary, so absurdly complex that at some level if you look long enough, squint hard enough, everything anyone does can be seen as a violation of some law. Everything. By anyone.
The president in office now. Your next presidential candidate. You.
Oh, it I couldn't possibly be a target for this kind of action! I'm not a sleazy politician/real estate developer/mob boss. This couldn't happen to me.
Oh yeah? Who have you pissed off lately?
Trump is a wealthy man with the resources to pay for a vigorous defense, and people who would defend him even if he had shot someone on 5th Avenue in broad daylight. What have you got?
You and anyone who might be a political threat to those in power ought to be very frightened by this, even if you or they have the means to fight it. For Trump this is all part of the cost of doing business. It would ruin most people, even if they prevailed in court. And if one trip to the courthouse didn't do it another couple might.
What does this mean for political participation in this country? At the retail level in politics (where I operate) this scares off decent people. All it leaves are egotists convinced their reputations can't be touched, fanatics who will pay any price to hold the reins of power, or the very naive who may not be able to handle the blows they'll take once they step into the arena.
You (your tribe) is starting a war. There will be further casualties. Anyoneânot just someone in a left-leaning one-party stateâcan play this game. Descending to this third-world level of bloodsport politics raises the stakes in elections: winner gets to punish the loser, loser gets to write a memoir in prison. That means if you enter the game you win at all costs. Your very life may depend on it.
There are precedents for this, and they aren't encouraging.
So your answer is let Trump do whatever he wants whenever he wants? Good plan.
Iâm not on board and you seem very confused about laws and the legal system.
