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kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2023 - 12:05am

 oldviolin wrote:

When you boil it all down to motivation, the modes and methods may be cloudy, but the end result is the same. Close your eyes and kill. Close your mind and kill. Close your heart and kill.

Guilt and/or innocence are becoming further removed from justice every day.

It's not ideology to be bandied about on the political fronts. It's not a game. I'm not trying to be preachy but the stories for reasons are gathering dust. Fear and hatred. These are issues of mental health. Do nothing or do something, but don't deny the motivations.
 
There is no more justice.  It really is just us now.  Been saying this for far too long.  True now more than ever.

Criminals are now the victims.  The criminal's victims are their instigators.  What is going on ?  When did this happen and how ?
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: May 9, 2023 - 9:56pm

 kcar wrote:


"This idiocy has already been debunked."

Please provide evidence of this debunking with links.



The worst waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who does not care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions. Never waste time on arguments that don’t make sense… There are people who, no matter how much evidence and evidence we present to them, are not in the capacity to understand, and others are blinded by ego, hatred and resentment, and all they want is to be right even if they are not.

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 9, 2023 - 4:15pm

 Beaker wrote:



"This is how bullets from an AR-15 blow the body apart"


This idiocy has already been debunked.  But you be you.  Go stand over there with the conspiracy nuts.



"This idiocy has already been debunked."

Please provide evidence of this debunking with links.
Isabeau

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Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: May 9, 2023 - 3:20pm

 kurtster wrote:

Don't forget selective enforcement ... that's the cherry on top of the desert ;)


But not the essence of it.  Like I stated earlier: 50 States, 50 different rules and laws. There is no 'selective enforcement' when laws vary from state to state.

Where do we draw the line between State Legislatures with Religious preferences that wish to overrule Federal Constitutional Rights?  Just because the word Uterus wasn't inserted in the Constitution, suddenly Corporations are People and Privacy protections don't exist for the Peasantry? 
OH-hhh. The Thomas Doctrine. Got it.

kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 9, 2023 - 3:10pm

 Isabeau wrote:

Selective Outrage. Selective Morality. It's what's for dinner.
 
Don't forget selective enforcement ... that's the cherry on top of the desert ;)
Isabeau

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Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: May 9, 2023 - 2:51pm

 Beaker wrote:



"This is how bullets from an AR-15 blow the body apart"


This idiocy has already been debunked.  But you be you.  Go stand over there with the conspiracy nuts.



Along with the "This is how an abortion rips a fetus apart" idiocy that has resulted in BANNING laws against women's internal organs?
What can possibly be more Unlawful Search and Seizure than getting up into women's hoo ha's?

*queue the "but that's different" response ... * 

Conspiracies regarding elections, Hunter Biden's Laptop, replacement theories, weaponization of Government .... those don't count? 
 But by all means, let's worry about little minds regarding drag queens reading stories, the reality of American History and Social Media's effects on young minds.

Selective Outrage. Selective Morality. It's what's for dinner.
Isabeau

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Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: May 9, 2023 - 2:40pm

Texas gunman fantasized over race wars on social media before mass killing


Beaker

Beaker Avatar

Location: Your safe space


Posted: May 9, 2023 - 1:24pm

 kcar wrote:

blah blah

THE BLAST EFFECT 
This is how bullets from an AR-15 blow the body apart

The AR-15 fires bullets at such a high velocity — often in a barrage of 30 or even 100 in rapid succession — that it can eviscerate multiple people in seconds. A single bullet lands with a shock wave intense enough to blow apart a skull and demolish vital organs. The impact is even more acute on the compact body of a small child.

“It literally can pulverize bones, it can shatter your liver and it can provide this blast effect,” said Joseph Sakran, a gunshot survivor who advocates for gun violence prevention and a trauma surgeon at Johns Hopkins Hospital.

During surgery on people shot with high-velocity rounds, he said, body tissue “literally just crumbled into your hands.”





"This is how bullets from an AR-15 blow the body apart"


This idiocy has already been debunked.  But you be you.  Go stand over there with the conspiracy nuts.

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 9, 2023 - 1:14pm

Going out on a limb here, perhaps,  but: 

Assault-style rifles and machine guns make it a lot easier for people to fulfill their desire to kill lots of people quickly. The rapid rate of fire, the number of bullets available before a needed reloaded, and the greater speed of a bullet fired from an assault-style rifle make such a weapon a superior means of mass homicide. That bullet according to the WaPo article cited can cross six football fields in a second. And when the bullet hits a target, it's already tumbling which vastly increases the area of injury to the target. 

Would we still have mass killings if we magically got rid of all assault-style weapons? Yes. We still don't fool-proof ways to find and stop all the people who want to kill many others, regardless of whether those would-be killers are mentally ill or not. The really motivated planners would build bombs instead of using an AR-15. But getting and using an AR-15 is a lot easier than building and planting a bomb, and probably a lot more emotionally appealing to someone wanting to kill lots of people. 


The Simple Physics That Makes Some Bullets Deadlier Than Others 
How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies.

Projectile weapons work by transferring kinetic energy to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: It’s the product of one half the projectile’s mass times the square of the velocity. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. The larger a projectile’s surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through.

According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. In a statement, the FBI said he used a modified an SKS , the predecessor to the AK-47 which shoots the same bullets. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinson’s gun would have met the criteria. It was modified to accept a detachable magazine and equipped with a folding stock.

The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (America’s most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it hits its target with more energy. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AK’s bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. That’s because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullet’s mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62 can weigh in at 125 grains. A .223 is just 55 grains.

The difference can be seen with pistol rounds, as well. Because it’s difficult to pack enough explosive powder into a cartridge that’s supposed to fit within the shooter’s pistol grip, handgun designers typically try to increase firepower by sticking a bigger piece of metal on the end of a round. The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mm’s typical 115 grains.

Semiautomatic rifles don’t shoot the largest bullets on the market. In fact, the .223 projectile, a common round for the AR-15, is not much larger than many .22 rounds like the Hornet, typically used for youth shooting sports, target shooting, and hunting varmints. The .223 weighs in at 55 grains, while the .22 is usually 45 grains or smaller.

What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. When the .223 exits the barrel of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. The .22, meanwhile, leaves the muzzle at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds.



THE BLAST EFFECT 
This is how bullets from an AR-15 blow the body apart

The AR-15 fires bullets at such a high velocity — often in a barrage of 30 or even 100 in rapid succession — that it can eviscerate multiple people in seconds. A single bullet lands with a shock wave intense enough to blow apart a skull and demolish vital organs. The impact is even more acute on the compact body of a small child.

“It literally can pulverize bones, it can shatter your liver and it can provide this blast effect,” said Joseph Sakran, a gunshot survivor who advocates for gun violence prevention and a trauma surgeon at Johns Hopkins Hospital.

During surgery on people shot with high-velocity rounds, he said, body tissue “literally just crumbled into your hands.”


...


The first part of this report is a 3D animation that shows the trajectory of two different hypothetical gunshots to the chest — one from an AR-15 and another from a typical handgun — to explain the greater severity of the damage caused by the AR-15.



R_P

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Gender: Male


Posted: May 9, 2023 - 12:59pm

 kcar wrote:
Dude! You're quoting liberal academia and legacy media! Red flag! Red flag! 🚩🚩🚩

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 9, 2023 - 12:45pm

 Beaker wrote:

Dateline: Canada, my city Edmonton,  yesterday:

Progressive hug-a-thug policies have led to the stabbing murder of an innocent woman & her child outside a school, by a guy known to police, with mental health issues and a history of randomly attacking children.   The progressive policies of catch and release continue to fail.  This attack could have been much worse had staff at the school not locked the place down.

'The system failed:' Suspect in fatal Edmonton stabbing of mom and child known to police

“He was brought before a judge and released with conditions and the charges were later stayed,” he said. “There are also indications that the suspect has a history of mental health concerns. In addition to his violent encounters, we do not know the status of any mental health assessments that were requested upon any of his files.”

Mental health issues are not a "strawman issue".  They are very much a big part of the problem.




"Mental health issues are not a "strawman issue". They are very much a big part of the problem."


Yes, but as others have pointed out here, conventionally defined mental illness is not always a good warning signal that someone is going to become a mass shooter. While most of us I think would regard a mass shooter by definition a mentally ill person, such killers don't always fit the term that the medical profession uses. 

Was Jake Teixera, the airman who spilled all that classified info on Discord, mentally ill? Apparently he was able to hold a job and function in society, yet he openly fantasized about killing people from a jeep or SUV. 

The prevalence of guns and relative ease of obtaining them are the most immediate cause for gun-related deaths and suicides. I believe that assault-style rifles or high-powered rifles with automatic or semi-automatic capability are a major factor in mass-killings. I believe that if you restricted public access to such weapons, there'd be a significant drop in mass killings. IIRC the US has seen a large increase in gun-related mass killings since the 1994 lifting of the automatic weapons ban. 

But "mental health issues" is such a broad term that muddles discussion of more distant, underlying causes. Apparently it's rare for severely mentally ill people—the schizophrenic and psychotic—to kill others en masse. 


Is There a Link Between Mental Health and Mass Shootings?

The data suggest that while it is critical that we continue to identify those individuals with mental illness and substance use disorders at high risk for violence and prevent the perpetration of violence, other risk factors, such as a history of legal problems, challenges coping with severe and acute life stressors, and the epidemic of the combination of nihilism, emptiness, anger, and a desire for notoriety among young men, seem a more useful focus for prevention and policy than an emphasis on serious mental illness, which leads to public fear and stigmatization.


What Are the Real Warning Signs of a Mass Shooting? While some mass shootings are committed by people with diagnosed mental illnesses, a life crisis is a better predictor of violence, researchers say.

Yet America’s mass killers fit no single profile and certainly no pattern of insanity — many, if not most, had never been diagnosed with a serious psychiatric disorder. Background checks can prevent someone with a diagnosis of mental illness from acquiring a gun, but psychologists say there is a wide divide between a clinical diagnosis and the type of emotional disturbance that precedes many mass killings.

The real problem, those experts say, is that mental illness is not a useful means to predict violence. About half of all Americans will experience mental health issues at some point in their lives, and the vast majority of people with mental illness do not kill.

“Do you or do you not have a mental health diagnosis?” said Jillian Peterson, a co-founder of the Violence Project, a research center that has compiled a database of mass shootings from 1966 on and studied perpetrators in depth. “In many cases, it doesn’t really matter. It’s not the main driver.”

Instead, many experts have come to focus on warning signs that occur whether or not actual mental illness is present, including marked changes in behavior, demeanor or appearance, uncharacteristic fights or arguments, and telling others of plans for violence, a phenomenon known as “leakage.”

...

Dr. Cornell said the mental health system is ill-suited to avert mass violence, because insurance companies limit what conditions they will pay to treat, and the laws governing psychiatric commitment, which can prevent people from acquiring guns, have a narrow definition of mental illness.

...

In Dr. Peterson’s database, more than two-thirds of the perpetrators had some history of mental health concerns, including hospitalization, counseling, psychiatric medication or a previous diagnosis. About 30 percent of the gunmen had some form of psychosis, a category of mental illness that involves difficulty determining reality, and of those, a third killed in direct response to delusions or hallucinations.

But in many cases, the psychosis did not have an influence on their crime, or was only one of several motivating factors. For example, a college student believed that school employees were conspiring against him and had him under surveillance, but turned violent only after failing to get a refund for his tuition.

All of this has prompted some skepticism about the new federal gun law’s allocation of $8.5 billion to expand the country’s mental health care system, especially when the number of mass killers is vanishingly small. “If we were to cure serious mental illnesses, violence would go down by 4 percent,” said Jeffrey Swanson, a sociologist at Duke University.


Beaker

Beaker Avatar

Location: Your safe space


Posted: May 9, 2023 - 12:05pm

Dateline: Canada, my city Edmonton,  yesterday:

Progressive hug-a-thug policies have led to the stabbing murder of an innocent woman & her child outside a school, by a guy known to police, with mental health issues and a history of randomly attacking children.   The progressive policies of catch and release continue to fail.  This attack could have been much worse had staff at the school not locked the place down.

'The system failed:' Suspect in fatal Edmonton stabbing of mom and child known to police

“He was brought before a judge and released with conditions and the charges were later stayed,” he said. “There are also indications that the suspect has a history of mental health concerns. In addition to his violent encounters, we do not know the status of any mental health assessments that were requested upon any of his files.”

"“This is becoming far too common,” he said. “There were multiple intervention points, multiple opportunities to hold the suspect accountable and provide him the professional support required to manage his behaviour. But the system once again failed.”

He said the “lack of accountability” for holding people accountable for serious, violent offences is “concerning.”

- Chief of Police McFee

——-

Mental health issues are not a "strawman issue".  They are very much a big part of the problem.





R_P

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Gender: Male


Posted: May 9, 2023 - 12:01pm

All the talk of insanity/mental health carries the risk of worsening existing stigmas:
An often politicized stereotype about people with mental illness is that they are violent or dangerous. However, a small minority of people living with mental illness commit violent acts. They are actually 10 times more likely to be victims of a crime, making them a vulnerable population we should be protecting instead of fearing.
E.g. riding the subway with mental health issues or being thrown in solitary with the key thrown away...
oldviolin

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Location: esse quam videri
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Posted: May 9, 2023 - 12:00pm

 kurtster wrote:

Or how one size does not fit all.
 
When you boil it all down to motivation, the modes and methods may be cloudy, but the end result is the same. Close your eyes and kill. Close your mind and kill. Close your heart and kill. Guilt and/or innocence are becoming further removed from justice every day. It's not ideology to be bandied about on the political fronts. It's not a game. I'm not trying to be preachy but the stories for reasons are gathering dust. Fear and hatred. These are issues of mental health. Do nothing or do something, but don't deny the motivations.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: May 9, 2023 - 11:56am

 R_P wrote:

There's the colloquial insane and the clinically/legally insane.

And there's context. If a drone operator kills a bunch of innocent people celebrating a wedding, are they insane? They're only following orders.


Yes, I was not intending to focus on criminal liability. The second paragraph of my post was just to note an example of a narrow standard for insanity that applies in a criminal proceeding. The red flag laws are civil proceedings, and the standard is less than insanity. 
.
How widely would we try to cast the net and how would it all work? Those are the questions I have and ponder (putting aside, for the moment, legal implications).  




kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 9, 2023 - 11:49am

 oldviolin wrote:
 R_P wrote:
There's the colloquial insane and the clinical/legally insane. And there's context. If a drone operator kills a bunch of innocent people celebrating a wedding, are they insane? They're only following orders.

the gist of it...
 
Or how one size does not fit all.
oldviolin

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Posted: May 9, 2023 - 11:40am

 R_P wrote:
 steeler wrote:
When we are talking about restrictions based on mental stability, the question does become how broadly would the net be cast?  To be adjudged not guilty by reason of insanity, it must be proven that the defendant did not understand what is right and what is wrong at the time of the crime’s commission. That is a narrow standard, one that probably would not be met in most of these mass shooting incidents.

There's the colloquial insane and the clinical/legally insane. And there's context. If a drone operator kills a bunch of innocent people celebrating a wedding, are they insane? They're only following orders.
 
the gist of it...
R_P

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Posted: May 9, 2023 - 11:38am

 steeler wrote:
When we are talking about restrictions based on mental stability, the question does become how broadly would the net be cast? 

To be adjudged not guilty by reason of insanity, it must be proven that the defendant did not understand what is right and what is wrong at the time of the crime’s commission. That is a narrow standard, one that probably would not be met in most of these mass shooting incidents.

There's the colloquial insane and the clinically/legally insane.

And there's context. If a drone operator kills a bunch of innocent people celebrating a wedding, are they insane? They're only following orders.

kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 9, 2023 - 11:30am

Let's not forget the elephant in the room.

With all of the calls to defund the police, there is a need greater than ever to be able to defend oneself because democrats are trying to take away our police and guns at the same time.

Yeah, that's what I said.  Democrats.  The only place this is coming from.
steeler

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Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: May 9, 2023 - 11:28am

 oldviolin wrote:

Especially not if recklessly projected on Tik Tok and Facebook. I mean, there's insanity and there's insanity... 

Indeed!


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