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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Health Care Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 265, 266, 267, 268, 269  Next
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arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 8:08pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

So, are you saying you do feel health care is a right?
  I think it is the responsibility of any advanced society to make certain medical care is provided to its people.. .

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Gilead


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 8:00pm

 arighter2 wrote:
Glad I found a some surgeons who disagree with you. Otherwise I'd be dead from cancer.

 
So, are you saying you do feel health care is a right?

jadewahoo

jadewahoo Avatar

Location: Somewhere in Aridzona
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 8:00pm

 oldslabsides wrote:
Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but I have the impression that a large percentage of folks seem to think that health care is a right.  If so, when exactly did it become one?

Like freedom to the slaves of yore, something that was not their legal right, so is the right to health care, shelter, food, clean water and the respect of dignity a de facto natural law, Where government has any role at all to play in our lives (and believe me, it is very circumscribed in my opinion) it is to nurture and protect these basic human rights against the encroachments of greed, prejudice and violence.


arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 7:59pm

 dmax wrote:

Health Care isn't a right, I agree. When I talk with my boys about where our donations go, I tend to say stupid stuff like "people need food. they don't HAVE to have even shelter, but they have to have food. that's where everything starts, and that's why we support he food bank."

Shelter, health care, nice clothes, education, good job - these are all wonderful things, provided in the best way that we can if we're a benevolent society. But they aren't rights.

and, BTW, why have employers pay health care? Seems like it's adding a weird criterion for getting coverage. Shouldn't employers pay a decent wage, and health care is provided at a decent cost? But don't tie them together. That's somewhat arbitrary and is also a ballast on the financial freedom of the company. I bet it kills many upstart ideas.

  Glad I found a some surgeons who disagree with you. Otherwise I'd be dead from cancer.


Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Gilead


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 7:56pm

 arighter2 wrote:
Not saying you shouldn't get your bennies for selling out to the man, but if you think those deserving are simply those that can afford, you're supporting a system in which the Bernard Madoff's of the world are entitled to the best health care, and millions of honest working folk can go without. Do you honestly think  there is justice in that?
 
See my reply to Dmax.

Justice is a separate issue.

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Gilead


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 7:54pm

 dmax wrote:

Health Care isn't a right, I agree. When I talk with my boys about where our donations go, I tend to say stupid stuff like "people need food. they don't HAVE to have even shelter, but they have to have food. that's where everything starts, and that's why we support he food bank."

Shelter, health care, nice clothes, education, good job - these are all wonderful things, provided in the best way that we can if we're a benevolent society. But they aren't rights.

and, BTW, why have employers pay health care? Seems like it's adding a weird criterion for getting coverage. Shouldn't employers pay a decent wage, and health care is provided at a decent cost? But don't tie them together. That's somewhat arbitrary and is also a ballast on the financial freedom of the company. I bet it kills many upstart ideas.

 
I agree.  Perhaps employers providing it is part of the problem.  The system is definitely broken, but I really don't think more government involvement is the solution, but that seems to be the drum they're beating these days and people are starting to buy into it.

arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 7:52pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

Um no - I don't think it's a right.

I'm grateful I work for a company that provides it.
  Not saying you shouldn't get your bennies for selling out to the man, but if you think those deserving are simply those that can afford, you're supporting a system in which the Bernard Madoff's of the world are entitled to the best health care, and millions of honest working folk can go without. Do you honestly think  there is justice in that?

(former member)

(former member) Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 7:48pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

Um no - I don't think it's a right.

I'm grateful I work for a company that provides it.
 
Health Care isn't a right, I agree. When I talk with my boys about where our donations go, I tend to say stupid stuff like "people need food. they don't HAVE to have even shelter, but they have to have food. that's where everything starts, and that's why we support he food bank."

Shelter, health care, nice clothes, education, good job - these are all wonderful things, provided in the best way that we can if we're a benevolent society. But they aren't rights.

and, BTW, why have employers pay health care? Seems like it's adding a weird criterion for getting coverage. Shouldn't employers pay a decent wage, and health care is provided at a decent cost? But don't tie them together. That's somewhat arbitrary and is also a ballast on the financial freedom of the company. I bet it kills many upstart ideas.


arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 7:37pm

 hippiechick wrote:

The whole country benefits from having a healthy population. People who don't have health insurance do not have preventative healthcare, and end up in the emergency room anyway, where the costs are much higher.

People who are physically ill, and mentally ill, are a burden on society.

I'll betcha that you would squawk long and loud if the gas company took away your health bennies. Does that mean you think it's a right? Why do you think you are entitled to medical care when other people are not?
  Thanks. I feel so much better about myself now. When I'm working tomorrow in an old rock quarry under the hot sun seperating wood to be used on the  pallets that bring goods to folk like you and Slabby, l'll think of y'all.

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Gilead


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 7:21pm

 hippiechick wrote:

The whole country benefits from having a healthy population. People who don't have health insurance do not have preventative healthcare, and end up in the emergency room anyway, where the costs are much higher.

People who are physically ill, and mentally ill, are a burden on society.

I'll betcha that you would squawk long and loud if the gas company took away your health bennies. Does that mean you think it's a right? Why do you think you are entitled to medical care when other people are not?
 
Um no - I don't think it's a right.

I'm grateful I work for a company that provides it.

hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 7:14pm

 oldslabsides wrote:
Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but I have the impression that a large percentage of folks seem to think that health care is a right.  If so, when exactly did it become one?

 
The whole country benefits from having a healthy population. People who don't have health insurance do not have preventative healthcare, and end up in the emergency room anyway, where the costs are much higher.

People who are physically ill, and mentally ill, are a burden on society.

I'll betcha that you would squawk long and loud if the gas company took away your health bennies. Does that mean you think it's a right? Why do you think you are entitled to medical care when other people are not?

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Gilead


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 6:43pm

Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but I have the impression that a large percentage of folks seem to think that health care is a right.  If so, when exactly did it become one?
(former member)

(former member) Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 5:14pm

 samiyam wrote:

My local health care clinic set up and supports a weekly farmer's market for access to affordable fresh and organic vegetables. 
 
Plate o shrimp! Mine too. Series of farmers' markets throughout the area. Love em.
jadewahoo

jadewahoo Avatar

Location: Somewhere in Aridzona
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 4:51pm

 katzendogs wrote:
I see nothing addressing illegal immigrant health care in here.

 
Oh, the USA will provide expensive, useless drugs (with side effects 10 x worse than the condition they are designed to treat) and needless surgeries to Canucks who are wintering in Scottsdale and Sedona just as readily as they do to their own populace. As long as they can pay...

bokey

bokey Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 4:37pm

 katzendogs wrote:
I see nothing addressing illegal immigrant health care in here.

 
That's what we have taxes for. It's already been addressed.


katzendogs

katzendogs Avatar

Location: Pasadena ,Texas
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 4:26pm

I see nothing addressing illegal immigrant health care in here.
samiyam

samiyam Avatar

Location: Moving North


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 4:18pm

 dmax wrote:
Went to a lecture last night by a guy named Christensen, who's supposedly the national expert on health care economics and stuff. Here's something by him.

Fascinating discussion of this topic. Began by talking about steel and rebar and how the market shifted drastically when larger mills got too set in their path and then were swallowed by mini-mills. Not bad management, just an inexorable trek to obsolescence.

Then, a discussion of health care premiums as a percent of the family income. was 7 percent, then 14, and in about 6 yrs will likely be about 30+%. This is, like the large steel companies, a predictable march towards unsustainability.

In fact, the only way to keep costs down is to develop cost-effective and routinely efficient strategies for health-care delivery. Any discovery process has three stages: intuitive discovery -> generalities that allow for comprehensive discussion of the problem -> specific rules for addressing the issue. There are medical problems that fall into those categories: Type 1 diabetes requires intuitive care, not strict rules. But, treatment of a sore throat has been honed to a set of specific rules that are patient-friendly and cost-effective. Those rules must be implemented to be efficient and cost-effective in situations where care is properly defined. It isn't, generally, because doing more results in more billing, doesn't it?

And, hospitals have positioned themselves as extremely expensive situations. Rather than a streamlined, efficient, cost-effective method of delivering a small cluster of products, they insist on a setup that is inherently hyper-expensive so that it can provide "anything." Small clinics geared towards, e.g., hernia repair, are about 1/3 the cost - for the same product. They are the only way to keep health care costs from skyrocketing.

Unsustainable skyrocketing care costs are also the result of inefficiencies in variations in ordering lab, prescribing medicine, and the general multi-site runaround that seems to be common. 

However, the way to keep costs under control and avoid the unsustainable price rise is anathema to fee-for-service medicine. If the provider makes money by ordering or providing a service, then preventative care is against their financial interests, no? They make less money if they recommend fruits and vegetables and more if they do an angioplasty. It's just how the FFS world is.

So, this gentleman predicted that fixed-pre-payment is the only reasonable method of keeping our culture healthy and preventing the current rise in health care costs. This is different from HMOs. It's a system wherein patients pay a fixed amount per month, and the health care system receiving those premiums knows that it is in their best financial interest to keep the patient from unnecessarily utilizing services, so as to be good stewards of the premiums paid (and that includes giving high-quality care so as to not lose premium dollars to lawsuits, right?).

And therefore he predicts that in the next 6 years, we will see the collapse of the FFS (fee-for-service, the old steel mill model) medical system as we see it today, and a move towards fixed-pre-payment services (the more efficient mini-mills for steel) across the country, competing to keep patients healthy (quality data are readily available as advertising attractants to subscribers) while providing a personable experience and integrating their providers, lab, imaging, etc. (Services in separate locations increase inefficiency/waste and drive up costs, and so are automatically less favorable.) He names a few medical care systems across the country that are already doing this. Those that aren't (the fee-for-service world) are about to have the rug yanked out from under them as they figure out integration, cost-effectiveness, integrated services, and the electronic medical record.

May we live in interesting times... 



 
My local health care clinic set up and supports a weekly farmer's market for access to affordable fresh and organic vegetables. 

(former member)

(former member) Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2009 - 4:07pm

Went to a lecture last night by a guy named Christensen, who's supposedly the national expert on health care economics and stuff. Here's something by him.

Fascinating discussion of this topic. Began by talking about steel and rebar and how the market shifted drastically when larger mills got too set in their path and then were swallowed by mini-mills. Not bad management, just an inexorable trek to obsolescence.

Then, a discussion of health care premiums as a percent of the family income. was 7 percent, then 14, and in about 6 yrs will likely be about 30+%. This is, like the large steel companies, a predictable march towards unsustainability.

In fact, the only way to keep costs down is to develop cost-effective and routinely efficient strategies for health-care delivery. Any discovery process has three stages: intuitive discovery -> generalities that allow for comprehensive discussion of the problem -> specific rules for addressing the issue. There are medical problems that fall into those categories: Type 1 diabetes requires intuitive care, not strict rules. But, treatment of a sore throat has been honed to a set of specific rules that are patient-friendly and cost-effective. Those rules must be implemented to be efficient and cost-effective in situations where care is properly defined. It isn't, generally, because doing more results in more billing, doesn't it?

And, hospitals have positioned themselves as extremely expensive situations. Rather than a streamlined, efficient, cost-effective method of delivering a small cluster of products, they insist on a setup that is inherently hyper-expensive so that it can provide "anything." Small clinics geared towards, e.g., hernia repair, are about 1/3 the cost - for the same product. They are the only way to keep health care costs from skyrocketing.

Unsustainable skyrocketing care costs are also the result of inefficiencies in variations in ordering lab, prescribing medicine, and the general multi-site runaround that seems to be common. 

However, the way to keep costs under control and avoid the unsustainable price rise is anathema to fee-for-service medicine. If the provider makes money by ordering or providing a service, then preventative care is against their financial interests, no? They make less money if they recommend fruits and vegetables and more if they do an angioplasty. It's just how the FFS world is.

So, this gentleman predicted that fixed-pre-payment is the only reasonable method of keeping our culture healthy and preventing the current rise in health care costs. This is different from HMOs. It's a system wherein patients pay a fixed amount per month, and the health care system receiving those premiums knows that it is in their best financial interest to keep the patient from unnecessarily utilizing services, so as to be good stewards of the premiums paid (and that includes giving high-quality care so as to not lose premium dollars to lawsuits, right?).

And therefore he predicts that in the next 6 years, we will see the collapse of the FFS (fee-for-service, the old steel mill model) medical system as we see it today, and a move towards fixed-pre-payment services (the more efficient mini-mills for steel) across the country, competing to keep patients healthy (quality data are readily available as advertising attractants to subscribers) while providing a personable experience and integrating their providers, lab, imaging, etc. (Services in separate locations increase inefficiency/waste and drive up costs, and so are automatically less favorable.) He names a few medical care systems across the country that are already doing this. Those that aren't (the fee-for-service world) are about to have the rug yanked out from under them as they figure out integration, cost-effectiveness, integrated services, and the electronic medical record.

May we live in interesting times... 


starcloud

starcloud Avatar

Location: Geo Update: 35.568622, -121.10409 you're close enough
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 7:39pm

 manbirdexperiment wrote:

what a bunch of oxymorons 
 
not intended, but thank you anyway
Manbird

Manbird Avatar

Location: La Villa Toscana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 7:30pm

 starcloud wrote:
haven't had health insurance for uh . . . 10 years, and my latest client is health care for all (imagine that) how ironic!

 
what a bunch of oxymorons 
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