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R_P

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Posted: May 11, 2022 - 12:57pm

The "legislating morality" chorus has gone quiet too: "Uhm, it's complicated."
Isabeau

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Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 12:52pm

 kurtster wrote:


Amazing how so many Republican/Trump followers knee jerk response of "but I'm in favor of exceptions in the case of Rape or Incest," to absolve themselves of a cruel reality in most anti abortion states:

11 States now have trigger laws that ban abortion without exceptions for Rape or Incest.

Others insist a victim file a Police Report before receiving any abortion care.

Ectopic Pregnancies require an abortion for the woman to live.

Septic Uterus requires an abortion for the woman to live.

An incomplete miscarriage requires a D&C for the woman to live.


Recently in Ireland, a young woman of 26 was hemorrhaging in her first trimester. Hospitals and the Law prevented her from getting an "abortion."
She literally died. Ireland soon passed rights to abortion.

But here in the States, with 400,000 Foster care kids in Texas alone, 11 States have decided women will die. Literally die in hospital corridors from doctors too scared to administer a needed procedure to save her life.

Split micro-hairs on Selective Morality and Value of Life anyone?

Oooo, let's see what Squirrels you will point out to divert from my point...


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 10:16am

 rgio wrote:
So your answer is "I know life begins at conception, but someone else should figure out what that means for the rights and support of the child"? 
It's a very "conservative" posture now to isolate the "wrong", call out the evil, but ignore the impact of the "solution".  It's like Obamacare...terrible, yet no reasonable alternative provided in the decade since by the Republicans. 
Not only do

you want to force the mother to have a child,
.
but you want her to raise it on her own, without government assistance or even a maternity leave that rivals other countries.   Why do you fight so hard for an unborn child that will be ignored, unwanted, and is statistically likely to participate in crime by the time they are a teenager? I have come to accept that the person making such a difficult choice is doing so for their own good, and ultimately that benefits everyone.  It's an isolated example, but who am I to tell someone that was raped that they have to deal with the consequences forever because I want to defend an organism with no viability on its own.
 
No, no, and no.

I have said nothing of the kind, anywhere, ever.  What I have said over and over again, is that it is a personal choice of the mother (can I still say mother ?) and safe medical care should be available should the mother opt for that choice.  I am pro choice in that regard, but that does not mean I am pro abortion.  I have no problem with abortion in the cases of rape and incest as I have also stated over and over again.

Quit putting words in my mouth that I have never, ever said.

I am just asking a question. A valid question that sooner or later will have to be decided on a national level.  How do you rectify the situation / dilemma I have described, which you just keep dancing around ?
.
 black321 wrote:


There is the real biological argument of, "When does human life start, and deserve legal rights/consideration?"

But I don't think either side is interested, 

 
I put you in that camp.  You just want to posture and virtue signal is all.

I just tried to ask the real question no one wants to discuss and until we do, we will stay where we are and more than likely we will soon end up with a dead SCOTUS justice or two.  And that will give Biden some more vacancies to fill.

Yeah, anybody have any good recipes for banana bread ?

Later, much ...
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 6:03am

anybody got any good bread recipes?
like a simple bake and brake?
you may butter either side of said bread to your heart's desire
because doctor my eyes
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 5:53am

 kurtster wrote:

That implies that both are acts of murder.  Is that what you meant to say ?

This is a real question and not a hypothetical as this conundrum does exist.  Sooner or later this has to be resolved.

FWIW, I do believe that life begins at conception.  At what point do we give that life rights ?  Another real question that I will admit is above my pay grade to answer.

The pro choice side says that this new life has no rights until after birth yet assigns rights to it if terminated by someone other than the pregnant woman.  And then what about terminating that life by a surrogate host ?  Do the embryo makers have any rights in the decision given no medical or health reasons for termination ?  I don't know this answer either.

Whatever, this is what happens when we keep kicking the can down the road.  Sooner or later you run out of road.

Back to you ...

So your answer is "I know life begins at conception, but someone else should figure out what that means for the rights and support of the child"? 


It's a very "conservative" posture now to isolate the "wrong", call out the evil, but ignore the impact of the "solution".  It's like Obamacare...terrible, yet no reasonable alternative provided in the decade since by the Republicans.  Not only do you want to force the mother to have a child, but you want her to raise it on her own, without government assistance or even a maternity leave that rivals other countries.   Why do you fight so hard for an unborn child that will be ignored, unwanted, and is statistically likely to participate in crime by the time they are a teenager?

I have come to accept that the person making such a difficult choice is doing so for their own good, and ultimately that benefits everyone.  It's an isolated example, but who am I to tell someone that was raped that they have to deal with the consequences forever because I want to defend an organism with no viability on its own.
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: May 11, 2022 - 1:54am

 kurtster wrote:

Well since you put it that way ...

Riddle me this ...

How come if you would say, shoot a pregnant woman and kill the fetus, regardless of whether or not the woman survives, you get charged with murder of the fetus.

But a woman can kill or abort the fetus herself and it's no big deal.

How is that since a fetus is not considered a person yet ?

Pretty simple in my mind, killing a fetus isn't murder. Those laws are part of the anti-abortion long game. However, depriving a pregnant woman of the choice of carrying her pregnancy to term is a very serious crime, no matter what you call it.

kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 10:03pm

 rgio wrote:

You made a lot of statements (and my questions to you presume the following) ....but if it makes you feel better, Yes,  the fetus is a person from conception.  Are you providing benefits? FWIW...you do agree with the person status of a fetus?
 
Below is the question that I asked.  I do not see an answer to that question.
 kurtster wrote:

How come if you would say, shoot a pregnant woman and kill the fetus, regardless of whether or not the woman survives, you get charged with murder of the fetus.

But a woman can kill or abort the fetus herself and it's no big deal.

How is that since a fetus is not considered a person yet ?


How come one situation is murder and the other is not when the end result is the same ?  
Or by what you say is the answer to my question ...

Yes,  the fetus is a person from conception. 
 
That implies that both are acts of murder.  Is that what you meant to say ?

This is a real question and not a hypothetical as this conundrum does exist.  Sooner or later this has to be resolved.

FWIW, I do believe that life begins at conception.  At what point do we give that life rights ?  Another real question that I will admit is above my pay grade to answer.

The pro choice side says that this new life has no rights until after birth yet assigns rights to it if terminated by someone other than the pregnant woman.  And then what about terminating that life by a surrogate host ?  Do the embryo makers have any rights in the decision given no medical or health reasons for termination ?  I don't know this answer either.

Whatever, this is what happens when we keep kicking the can down the road.  Sooner or later you run out of road.

Back to you ...
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 1:12pm

 kurtster wrote:


You only answered my question with another question.
.
So how about you answer my question first.  Then I'll answer yours.

You made a lot of statements (and my questions to you presume the following) ....but if it makes you feel better, Yes,  the fetus is a person from conception.  Are you providing benefits?

FWIW...you do agree with the person status of a fetus?

kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 1:06pm

 rgio wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

I asked the question.  Mine was not rhetorical while yours is.

It's not rhetorical.  If you are going to assign the protections of a living child, don't you have to provide benefits to the child and their family?  
 

You only answered my question with another question.
.
So how about you answer my question first.  Then I'll answer yours.
ColdMiser

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Location: On the Trail
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 12:33pm

 rgio wrote:

.  They don't appreciate that they are a drag on earnings, and instead see poor, black, urban unwed mothers as the recipients of aid payments... which explains their disdain for the programs they underfund and overuse.


Amazing the lasting influence of Reagan's infamous Welfare Queen rhetoric isn't it?

rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 12:27pm

 kurtster wrote:

I asked the question.  Mine was not rhetorical while yours is.

It's not rhetorical.  If you are going to assign the protections of a living child, don't you have to provide benefits to the child and their family?  


kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 12:03pm

 rgio wrote:
 

Are you giving personal exemptions to the parents of the unborn, and child tax credits upon conception?  Increases in food stamps?  Free access to childhood healthcare programs?
 
I asked the question.  Mine was not rhetorical while yours is.
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 10:49am

 kurtster wrote:

Exactly !!

I have no dog in this hunt either.  Just putting it to those who do.

Are you giving personal exemptions to the parents of the unborn, and child tax credits upon conception?  Increases in food stamps?  Free access to childhood healthcare programs?


Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 10:47am

 black321 wrote:


Maybe they just resent their own neighbors. 

Good point, a lot of people do resent their neighbors - for all sorts of reasons.

kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 10:45am

 black321 wrote:
  There is the real biological argument of, "When does human life start, and deserve legal rights/consideration?"

But I don't think either side is interested, 

and I'm not smart enough to comment (or I'm smart enough not to comment)...so I will waddle away from this discussion. 
 
Exactly !!

I have no dog in this hunt either.  Just putting it to those who do.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 10:35am

 kurtster wrote:

Well since you put it that way ...

Riddle me this ...

How come if you would say, shoot a pregnant woman and kill the fetus, regardless of whether or not the woman survives, you get charged with murder of the fetus.

But a woman can kill or abort the fetus herself and it's no big deal.

How is that since a fetus is not considered a person yet ?


There is the real biological argument of, "When does human life start, and deserve legal rights/consideration?"
But I don't think either side is interested, 
and I'm not smart enough to comment (or I'm smart enough not to comment)...so I will waddle away from this discussion. 

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 10:26am

 islander wrote:
 Isabeau wrote:
11 States Currently have Trigger Laws to ban abortion without ANY Exceptions for Rape or Incest. Do not believe the Sunday Republican talking heads implying that they will get those exemptions added. They aren't going to: Hardcore Republicans are saying absolutely No exceptions for Rape or Incest.  Nervous Physicians have expressed they will not feel comfortable performing needed D&C's for women who have miscarried or addressing ectopic pregnancies, due to fear of litigation.   Women will die ... in the name of 'pro-life.'
It's not just the 11 states. They are laying the groundwork to declare a fetus as a person. They will then have a federal ban overruling other states.  Is it hypocrisy?  Are you surprised?
 
Well since you put it that way ...

Riddle me this ...

How come if you would say, shoot a pregnant woman and kill the fetus, regardless of whether or not the woman survives, you get charged with murder of the fetus.

But a woman can kill or abort the fetus herself and it's no big deal.

How is that since a fetus is not considered a person yet ?
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 9:53am

 Proclivities wrote:

Yeah, I knew that was your point essentially; I got to it in my last sentence.  Some of those states also have the highest per capita numbers of welfare (SNAP) recipients, though those numbers jump around for different factors and times.  But there is an irony to the disdain for the Federal govt coming from some people who depend on it so largely.


Maybe they just resent their own neighbors. 
Proclivities

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Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 9:47am

 rgio wrote:

A lot of this isn't about politics.  Education (until recently) wasn't really about politics, so much as priorities.   The FEMA needs are due to natural disasters...hurricanes, tornados, and fires (which is why CA makes the list).  The point is...they hate government, especially the federal one, but then rely on it more than most. They are net takers, and still complain that the government gives away too much money.  They don't appreciate that they are a drag on earnings, and instead see poor, black, urban unwed mothers as the recipients of aid payments... which explains their disdain for the programs they underfund and overuse.


Yeah, I knew that was your point essentially; I got to it in my last sentence.  Some of those states also have the highest per capita numbers of welfare (SNAP) recipients, though those numbers jump around for different factors and times.  But there is an irony to the disdain for the Federal govt coming from some people who depend on it so largely.
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: May 10, 2022 - 9:39am

 Proclivities wrote:

To be fair, FEMA allotments are determined primarily by natural disasters - or projected natural disasters - not political affiliations.  However many of the outspoken critics of FEMA are from states which often need it most.


A lot of this isn't about politics.  Education (until recently) wasn't really about politics, so much as priorities.   The FEMA needs are due to natural disasters...hurricanes, tornados, and fires (which is why CA makes the list).  The point is...they hate government, especially the federal one, but then rely on it more than most. They are net takers, and still complain that the government gives away too much money.  They don't appreciate that they are a drag on earnings, and instead see poor, black, urban unwed mothers as the recipients of aid payments... which explains their disdain for the programs they underfund and overuse.

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