Elizabeth Warren Finally Speaks on Israel/Gaza, Sounds Like Netanyahu - The Intercept/Greenwald

 o'kurtster wrote: 
So much hyperbole (non stop coverage), inferring from what has not (yet) been posted, along with several more misrepresentations/lies. You'd make a great conspiracy theorist. Oh wait...

Again: it makes no difference to the big picture (of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict), which stays the same.

 RichardPrins wrote:
And yet in your pursuit of fairness and honesty in your non stop coverage of the atrocities in Gaza, you didn't mention this.  This is 24 hour old news and you admit that you were aware of this change of events, yet you did not post this major piece of news.  Why didn't you post this ?  Because it harms your narrative and actually provides Israel with the justification for its actions to date.

Who started what does matter.  You've claimed all along that the Israeli's were the instigators, the aggressors.  That is false from the gitgo in this round and does matter in the big picture because thousands have been killed this round.  You deny the reality and try to make it out to be a false flag with your claim that it makes little difference.  It is not and it does make a legitimate difference because Hamas accomplished their goal of starting a new war.  Hamas got what they asked for and you try and say they did not.

You say you're for Palestinian rights, right ?  Well the Palestinians overwhelmingly and democratically elected Hamas to be their government knowing full well what Hamas is and what it stands for.  You simply cannot say you support the Palestinians and not Hamas.  Hamas represents the wants, needs and desires of the Palestinian people.  The Palestinians of Gaza want a genocidal war with Israel.  And you want them to have it and win it, wiping out Israel once and for all and permanently reclaiming Palestine from the Jews.  This the nature of the sources and articles you post and you cannot separate yourself from your posts.  You repeatedly defend Hamas as Freedom Fighters©.  That says that you support their genocide against Israel. 

Deny away ... Hamas is good, they fight for freedom !

Have a nice day ...

 kurtster wrote:
 
I'll say first that it remains your black&white (and false) claim that I (must) support Hamas, because I support Palestinian rights. That is but one among many other ridiculous claims that you have made about me on this topic. However, the only thing that really shows, is a very limited, but entirely unsurprising, capacity for understanding, and substantial lack of logic on your part.

Second, I see no reason to be concerned with my credibility when this is highlighted by a right-wing extremist/denier/troll.

As you could see in the article you quoted their leadership (initially) denied knowledge of the kidnapping. The other claim that also denied Hamas was responsible came from Israeli police (same article):

"Israeli police Mickey Rosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def lone cell, hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership"

If Israel did know better, they could have showed supporting evidence, which they did not. We now "know" because apparently an official said so at a summit.

And yes, this new claim was mentioned in an article I read earlier:
 
Israel Kills 3 Top Hamas Leaders as Latest Fighting Turns Its Way - NYTimes.com

The who-started-what-this-round arguments ultimately make little difference to the big picture that you're also unable to grasp, Mr. "Neutral".

Another interesting piece today, aside from Israel's renewed carnage/executions, was:

Poll: Most Israelis oppose intermarriage
Jews more averse than Arab to intermarriage with people of other religions, poll finds.

Israeli Jews are more opposed to intermarriage than Israeli Arabs, with fully 75 percent of Jews saying they would refuse to marry someone of a different religion, a new poll by Haaretz found.

Among Arabs, only 65 percent said they wouldn’t marry someone of a different religion. (...)

 RichardPrins wrote: 
RichardPrins wrote:  

Whadya say now meme boy ?  

Killing of 3 boys in June provoked spiral of violence that led to war in Gaza

By Noah Browning, Thomson Reuters Posted: Aug 21, 2014 8:07 AM ET Last Updated: Aug 21, 2014 11:16 AM ET

and not just this one source either ...

Evidently you are a useful idiot perpetrating lies to further the cause of your Freedom Fighters©.  Your whole basis for supporting Hamas has been built on these lies that you not only fell for, hook, line and sinker but furthered to support your own agenda.  Hamas did what you said they didn't to start the very war you claim was started by Israel.

Big fail on your part here.  This and your usage of a Facebook page post as a credible source for another one of your attempts to support Hamas takes your cred down a couple of notches.

I really don't understand how anyone can support Hamas.  Yet there are many and their support is as unconditional as yours.

Amnesty and Human Rights Watch 'Barred from Entering Gaza Strip'

Israel has allegedly barred Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch representatives from entering Gaza, in order to investigate if the Israeli government and Hamas committed war crimes and human rights violations during the recent conflict.

Haaretz reported that employees from both organisations have not been allowed to enter Gaza since 7 July. The grounds for the ban are that the Erez border crossing, between Israel and the Gaza Strip, is closed, and that neither group is included in a list of aid groups issued by the Israeli Ministry of Social Affairs.

During Operation Protective Edge to journalists, UN employees and Palestinians in need of medical care, were able to move through the Erez border crossing.

The Cogat (coordinator of government activity in the territories) guidelines for the passage of foreigners through the Erez crossing state that employees of unrecognised organisations – those not registered with the Social Affairs ministry – "may submit an exceptional request that will be considered in light of the prevailing policy based on the political-security situation".

Amnesty 'not an aid organisation'

Amnesty reportedly held talks with Israeli authorities. Israel has stated that only UN agencies can be registered with the foreign ministry, and that the human rights group does not "meet the criterion set" by the Social Affairs ministry for a humanitarian aid organisation. (...)

My post may be more suitable for this thread....

Totally destroy Gaza..hhmm?

Short of total destruction would include the destruction or severe damage of almost all working hospitals. Those hospitals still functioning cannot get supplies due to the shelling, breakdown of local transport, and the long standing blockade of Gaza to imports. In addition, working personnel are not able to reach their destinations.   The UN aid workers cannot get in w/o significant hassle.  "Doctors w/o Borders" are deprived timely access.

Israel has destroyed 0ver 10 000 private homes.138 schools including 89 administered by the UN.  Many civilian casualties/fatalities were inflicted in the Israeli campaign.  Despite Israeli "human shield" complaints, little evidence has been found to support this claim. Remember, Gaza has no military bases and in such a densely populated area, what little Hamas (or other) resistance there is will necessarily be part of the civilian landscape.

Irregular electrical power (think lack of refrigeration in a hot summer climate), destruction or pollution of a vast amount of the municipal water supply, the breakdown of most fundamental civic services as well as the shuttering off a high percentage of private businesses (grocery stores, fundamental home supplies, etc).

By UN count:

So that may not be total destruction, but I think devastating will understate the case. Remember, please, Gaza is only 3-10 miles wide and about 25 miles long.  This level of destruction, is perhaps Not Total, just, Simply Devastating.  Consider your words carefully, Israelis. Gaza has long been described as the largest open air prison on earth.

Palestine posters archive nominated to UNESCO Memory of the World program | Mondoweiss

The Palestine Poster Project Archives

 cc_rider wrote:
I am, academically, and more significantly as a layman, a(n) historian.  There is "interpretation" of historical accounts, certainly.  It is our job through rigorous investigation to determine what "the facts" are.  Some are easy: Did WWII occur?  Of course.  Why?  Subject to much research, even now.   Some are much more difficult, especially large, interlocking and nuanced investigations, e.g. The Zionist movement and what forces drove the transition/partition of Palestine to include Israel.

In the end, it seems to be: follow the money or power; you pick which order.  Also, in reviewing history "accidents" can happen. not really

 kurtster wrote: 
"The one" likely doesn't exist, but by comparing several serious historiographies (both of victors and victims, and written in different time periods from different ideological and critical perspectives) you might get a good idea of what happened and perhaps even to some degree why. That obviously takes a lot of effort.

 kurtster wrote: 
The version written by the victors. Written in the blood of the dead.

What, you were expecting 'facts' or 'truth'? Good luck with that.

And with so many versions of history to be found, which one is the one ?

 RichardPrins wrote:True, that.  Those gotdam misguided redrawing of borders, again....
I will accept the collective refusal to learn (ignoring?) the lessons of history as an "original sin".

 ScottN wrote: 
One can always hope.

Contrary to the claims, celebrations and glorification of the misguided, WW I brought about mostly misery in various parts of the world, as well as unforeseen long-term consequences and injustices that still haunt us today. To ignore that history dooms us to repeat the same mistakes again and again and again. And we continue to do so at our own peril.

 RichardPrins wrote:My point made more clearly; thank you. My profound hope is that war fatigue, shame, pragmatics, or some combination of factors, will somehow become the motivation for the participants to reach some sense of "equilibrium" and thus peace attained (for a while at least), and the killing, the dying, stop.
 

 ScottN wrote:
It's not so much about "original sin" as it is about understanding history. The redrawing of maps is what happens when empires (or similar unions) dissolve/disintegrate by means of war...

 RichardPrins wrote:
I've posted before that looking for "original sin" in this enduring conflict is an unrewarding approach.  That said, I will mention one major error made by the Brits (read— The  West) after WWI.  The redrawing of Near East and Middle East borders (Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan and more) to create states w/o regard to nations was a huge mistake and one people are dying for to this day. 

 ScottN wrote:
It had already started under British rule, eg. see 1936–39 Arab revolt in Palestine

I suppose it can be explained to some degree by trauma and base ethnic nationalism (i.e. Zionism) on the one side (Israelis), and guilt on the other (for those that didn't lift a finger to prevent or even collaborated in the Holocaust). Add to that religious views of a Judeo-Christian "Holy Land".

 RichardPrins wrote:It has long bewildered me that Jews, so terribly treated less than a decade earlier, were themselves so willing to see others' blood shed to create Israel.  How did their collective conscience allow them to abuse others after being recently so terribly abused themselves? The war-weary world—The West, and with distinct disregard for the beleaguered population of then Palestine, nevertheless enabled it.