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Index » Regional/Local » Europe » Ukraine Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 103, 104, 105 ... 114, 115, 116  Next
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kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 21, 2014 - 1:00pm

Russian media on downed airliner: The CIA did it

2 Hours Ago 
miamizsun

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Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 21, 2014 - 12:42pm

about 25 years ago....

Navy Missile Downs Iranian Jetliner

By George C. WilsonWashington Post Staff Writer Monday, July 4, 1988; Page A01

A U.S. warship fighting gunboats in the Persian Gulf yesterday mistook an Iranian civilian jetliner for an attacking Iranian F14 fighter plane and blew it out of the hazy sky with a heat-seeking missile, the Pentagon announced. Iran said 290 persons were aboard the European-made A300 Airbus and that all had perished.

"The U.S. government deeply regrets this incident," Adm. William J. Crowe Jr., chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told a Pentagon news conference.




kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 21, 2014 - 9:42am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

What do you want him to do? Make a strongly-worded speech?

 
No.  I did not make the post as a criticism of Obama.  It was about the reaction of the markets and how his statement was received.

The US really doesn't have a role in Ukraine the way I see it.  And I do not wish to see the US get more involved in Ukraine.  This is the EU's problem.  The EU will do little because of its energy dependence on Russia.

No one has any leverage over Putin.  That is the take away.  The markets are relieved that little will come of this.  Stating this was the sole intent of my post.
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 21, 2014 - 9:17am

 kurtster wrote:
Obama spoke on Ukraine just a bit over 45 minutes ago.

Nothing remarkable, but the take away is that no actions or consequences lie ahead for Russia.  The market response confirms this as nearly all indicators are reversing their big drops and may close in the green.

It seems that Putin will skate on this, and we're back to square one in Ukraine as if nothing has happened. 

 
What do you want him to do? Make a strongly-worded speech?
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 21, 2014 - 9:14am

Obama spoke on Ukraine just a bit over 45 minutes ago.

Nothing remarkable, but the take away is that no actions or consequences lie ahead for Russia.  The market response confirms this as nearly all indicators are reversing their big drops and may close in the green.

It seems that Putin will skate on this, and we're back to square one in Ukraine as if nothing has happened. 
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 8:16pm

 kurtster wrote:

Yes you doubt the statements to be accurate ?

Let me just get to it and save you the trouble.

 k  Do you doubt that the governments mentioned did issue statements at the times stated ?

s  Yes they are not true.

k  And what do you have to prove that they are false statements ?

s  I have not found anything that contradicts the statements in question

k  Since you have found nothing to disprove the statement it will be considered to be true.

or ...

k  Do you doubt that the governments mentioned did issue statements at the times stated ?

s  No, I believe that the statements made are accurate.

k  good, then we can also maintain that the government statements were made based on confirmations or verifications sufficient for 3 governments 
 
s   If 3 governments make separate statements all on the same subject and there is nothing conflicting then it would be reasonable to conclude that something real and verifiable happened as maintained.

k  Since we cannot prove the statements are false, we can consider it settled until contradicting evidence is produced.

good night. 

  
yes, you should get some rest.


kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 8:13pm

 steeler wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

Do you doubt that the governments mentioned did issue statements at the times stated ?

yes, there were reports of statements made by officials in various countries.

 

 
Yes you doubt the statements to be accurate ?

Let me just get to it and save you the trouble.

 k  Do you doubt that the governments mentioned did issue statements at the times stated ?

s  Yes they are not true.

k  And what do you have to prove that they are false statements ?

s  I have not found anything that contradicts the statements in question

k  Since you have found nothing to disprove the statement it will be considered to be true.

or ...

k  Do you doubt that the governments mentioned did issue statements at the times stated ?

s  No, I believe that the statements made are accurate.

k  good, then we can also maintain that the government statements were made based on confirmations or verifications sufficient for 3 governments 
 
s   If 3 governments make separate statements all on the same subject and there is nothing conflicting then it would be reasonable to conclude that something real and verifiable happened as maintained.

k  Since we cannot prove the statements are false, we can consider it settled until contradicting evidence is produced.

good night. 
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 8:00pm

 haresfur wrote:

I stand corrected on the timeline.  I do think you are overly harsh on the statement.

 
Pardon my terseness, its late here and unintended towards you.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 7:58pm

 kurtster wrote:

You did not answer the question.  It was a yes or no question.

 
yes, there were reports of statements made by officials in various countries.

 
haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
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Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 7:54pm

 kurtster wrote:

That's local Malaysian time.  It was in afternoon broad daylight in Ukraine and it was about  10 or 11 am here in EDT.  

I'm making some assumptions and saying so.  We no doubt have at least one bird parked over Ukraine and no doubt have pictures from the satellite in real time.  The pictures are good enough to read headlines on newspapers laying on the ground.  We have been monitoring Russian troop movements for months.  For me to assume anything less of the US is to be stupid and foolish.

I watched this unfold live for the hours before and leading to and watching Obama's initial statement live as it happened and to more for several hours afterwards.  I had seen video of the plane impacting well before Obama's speech.

If our government is incapable of figuring out simple things like this in short order, then great googidty moogidty we are in one heap of trouble.  I will assume that our government has the capability and did know exactly what happened within  a couple of hours.  We are watching this area 24/7.  I simply cannot believe that our government is incompetent at everything it does.  And if it turns out to be incompetence that kept our President from being properly informed, once again, then WTF ?   ...

 
I stand corrected on the timeline.  I do think you are overly harsh on the statement.
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 7:50pm

 steeler wrote:

I have reviewed tonight the Reuters accounts from that day. 

Your focus on Obama making a qualified statement seems misplaced. And it belies  your assertions made here that first day that we were talking about something unimportant in the scheme of things. Now you seem to find it to be of utmost importance what Obama said in his initial comments.

I have read a number of stories the last few days and watched and listened to Kerry's statements today .  I find the US to be pursuing the matter.

 
You did not answer the question.  It was a yes or no question.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 7:47pm

 kurtster wrote:

Do you doubt that the governments mentioned did issue statements at the times stated ?

 
I have reviewed tonight the Reuters accounts from that day. 

Your focus on Obama making a qualified statement seems misplaced. And it belies  your assertions made here that first day that we were talking about something unimportant in the scheme of things. Now you seem to find it to be of utmost importance what Obama said in his initial comments.

I have read a number of stories the last few days and watched and listened to Kerry's statements today .  I find the US to be pursuing the matter.
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 7:35pm

 steeler wrote:

I have no idea what you are talking about. You asked something about what standard should be applied to determining whether it was known at time of Obama's initial statement that the plane had been shot down and you said your standard was that 2 countries had officially announced and verified it. I pointed out what you stated was false.  

 
Do you doubt that the governments mentioned did issue statements at the times stated ?
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 7:32pm

 haresfur wrote:

It's a quote from between 2:07 and 2:30 in the freeking morning, less than 4 3/4 hours after the plane has crashed, before cause has been established except via a news report less than 23 minutes earlier that he may or may not have been aware of before Reuters contacted him and you are going to ding him for saying "may be"??? That's harsh. The more you talk about this the more credit I give him for a measured response.

 
That's local Malaysian time.  It was in afternoon broad daylight in Ukraine and it was about  10 or 11 am here in EDT.  

I'm making some assumptions and saying so.  We no doubt have at least one bird parked over Ukraine and no doubt have pictures from the satellite in real time.  The pictures are good enough to read headlines on newspapers laying on the ground.  We have been monitoring Russian troop movements for months.  For me to assume anything less of the US is to be stupid and foolish.

I watched this unfold live for the hours before and leading to and watching Obama's initial statement live as it happened and to more for several hours afterwards.  I had seen video of the plane impacting well before Obama's speech.

If our government is incapable of figuring out simple things like this in short order, then great googidty moogidty we are in one heap of trouble.  I will assume that our government has the capability and did know exactly what happened within  a couple of hours.  We are watching this area 24/7.  I simply cannot believe that our government is incompetent at everything it does.  And if it turns out to be incompetence that kept our President from being properly informed, once again, then WTF ?   ...
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 7:12pm

 kurtster wrote:

I'm on trial here.  You are questioning me.  I am insisting on a cross examination of my accuser, you.

You are refusing to allow a cross examination.  My question to you is clear.  Either answer or I'll consider this dismissed and move on.

Your turn.

 
I have no idea what you are talking about. You asked something about what standard should be applied to determining whether it was known at time of Obama's initial statement that the plane had been shot down and you said your standard was that 2 countries had officially announced and verified it. I pointed out what you stated was false.  
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 7:04pm

 steeler wrote:

What are you talking about?  There is no evidence that it had been officially announced and verified at the time of Obama's initial statement — as you have claimed — that the plane had been shot down. Now you try to claim I am twisting your words and intent? 

 
I'm on trial here.  You are questioning me.  I am insisting on a cross examination of my accuser, you.

You are refusing to allow a cross examination.  My question to you is clear.  Either answer or I'll consider this dismissed and move on.

Your turn.
haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 6:59pm

 kurtster wrote:

* 10.15 PM – (Malaysia time) Malaysia Airlines confirmed it received notification from Ukrainian ATC that it had lost contact with flight MH17 at 1415 (GMT) at 30km from Tamak waypoint, approximately 50km from the Russia-Ukraine border.

July 18 (Friday)

* 12.00 AM –(Malaysian) Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak tweets: “I am shocked by reports that an MH plane crashed. We are launching an immediate investigation”.

- Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk orders an investigation into the crash.

* 2.07 AM – Reuters reported quoting the Russian Emergencies Minister Vladimir Puchkov as saying that Russia has asked Kiev on Thursday for permission to help with rescue work in eastern Ukraine after a Malaysian passenger airliner was brought down there.

* 2.30 AM – Reuters reported quoting US President Barack Obama as saying on Thursday in Wilmington, Delaware, that the crash of a Malaysian jetliner on the border of Ukraine was a( "may be a" ) “terrible tragedy”

What part of brought down do you not comprehend ?  At the time of Obama's statement there was no doubt anywhere that the plane had either been shot down or blown up in midair by a bomb.  However, a bomb had been eliminated by the time Obama spoke.

Now you answer my question.  Surely you must at the very least, have some boiler plate at the ready

 
It's a quote from between 2:07 and 2:30 in the freeking morning, less than 4 3/4 hours after the plane has crashed, before cause has been established except via a news report less than 23 minutes earlier that he may or may not have been aware of before Reuters contacted him and you are going to ding him for saying "may be"??? That's harsh. The more you talk about this the more credit I give him for a measured response.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 6:56pm

 kurtster wrote:

My intent and the substance of my assessment are well established.  You are trying to take my point in directions that I did not claim nor try to go.  You're just obfuscating the germane and nothing more.  Let's get to the point ... assuming I'm right (for the sake of this separate sidebar if nothing else), what is your point ?

Now answer my question. 

 
What are you talking about?  There is no evidence that it had been officially announced and verified at the time of Obama's initial statement — as you have claimed — that the plane had been shot down. Now you try to claim I am twisting your words and intent? 
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 6:50pm

 steeler wrote:

The first two statements you have boldfaced speak only in terms of a crash.  The third boldface is of a Reuters report  that a Russian  official had asked Kiev for permission to help rescue work of a plane " brought down."  It is unclear whether the use of this phrase was that of this media outlet or of Reuters or some other entity. The chronology puts the time at 2:07 am and says reuters reported at 2:30 am on Obama's initial statement. From this, you surmise that it was officialy announced and verified by 2 governments? Which 2 governments? 

I have seen seen nothing that establishes that at the time of Obama's initial statement that it had been officially announced and verified that the plane had been shot down. That you had to dug up this report from some outlet in India is testament to that — and your desperation .

 

 
My intent and the substance of my assessment are well established.  You are trying to take my point in directions that I did not claim nor try to go.  You're just obfuscating the germane and nothing more.  Let's get to the point ... assuming I'm right (for the sake of this separate sidebar if nothing else), what is your point ?

Now answer my question. 
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 20, 2014 - 6:40pm

 kurtster wrote:

* 10.15 PM – (Malaysia time) Malaysia Airlines confirmed it received notification from Ukrainian ATC that it had lost contact with flight MH17 at 1415 (GMT) at 30km from Tamak waypoint, approximately 50km from the Russia-Ukraine border.

July 18 (Friday)

* 12.00 AM –(Malaysian) Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak tweets: “I am shocked by reports that an MH plane crashed. We are launching an immediate investigation”.

- Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk orders an investigation into the crash.

* 2.07 AM – Reuters reported quoting the Russian Emergencies Minister Vladimir Puchkov as saying that Russia has asked Kiev on Thursday for permission to help with rescue work in eastern Ukraine after a Malaysian passenger airliner was brought down there.

* 2.30 AM – Reuters reported quoting US President Barack Obama as saying on Thursday in Wilmington, Delaware, that the crash of a Malaysian jetliner on the border of Ukraine was a( "may be a" ) “terrible tragedy”

What part of brought down do you not comprehend ?  At the time of Obama's statement there was no doubt anywhere that the plane had either been shot down or blown up in midair by a bomb.  However, a bomb had been eliminated by the time Obama spoke. 

Now you answer my question. 

 
The first two statements you have boldfaced speak only in terms of a crash.  The third boldface is of a Reuters report  that a Russian  official had asked Kiev for permission to help rescue work of a plane " brought down."  It is unclear whether the use of this phrase was that of this media outlet or of Reuters or some other entity. The chronology puts the time at 2:07 am and says reuters reported at 2:30 am on Obama's initial statement. From this, you surmise that it was officialy announced and verified by 2 governments? Which 2 governments? 

I have seen seen nothing that establishes that at the time of Obama's initial statement that it had been officially announced and verified that the plane had been shot down. That you had to dug up this report from some outlet in India is testament to that — and your desperation .

 
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