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NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 10:37am

 black321 wrote:
 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

{#Sick} omg, the look of fear on his face.  as to internal solutions.. one can only hope.
Putin allowing this to get out, and his threats of nuclear response to any western interference...seems like he's smells the weakness, chaos... in the west, and playing all his cards. 
 
yep, there's the definite whiff of a poker player suddenly throwing all his chips down and is now playing for broke.

EDIT, I should also add, that that means he knows he's got a losing hand, which of course makes him dangerous as hell.
black321

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Location: An earth without maps
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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 10:34am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

{#Sick}
 omg, the look of fear on his face. 

as to internal solutions.. one can only hope.


Putin allowing this to get out, and his threats of nuclear response to any western interference...seems like he's smells the weakness, chaos... in the west, and playing all his cards. 
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 10:32am

 miamizsun wrote:

Vladimir Putin made the Budapest Memorandum a dead letter with his first invasion of Ukraine in 2014. But the betrayal of Budapest isn’t forgotten in Kyiv, as President Volodymyr Zelensky noted bitterly in weekend remarks in Munich.

Budapest shows again the folly of trusting parchment promises in a world where autocrats think might makes right. More damaging is the message that nations give up their nuclear arsenals at their peril. That’s the lesson North Korea has learned, and Iran is following the same playbook as it connives to build the bomb even as it promises not to do so.

The inability of the U.S. to enforce its Budapest commitments will also echo in allied capitals that rely on America’s military assurances. Don’t be surprised if Japan or South Korea seek their own nuclear deterrent. If Americans want to know why they should care about Ukraine, nuclear proliferation is one reason. Betrayal has consequences, as the world seems destined to learn again the hard way.

 
Hadn't read that, but damn, the more I hear from Zelensky the more I like him. 
miamizsun

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 10:27am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

That fits the neo-fascist mold, wie das Faust aufs Auge, to use an apposite German phrase.. Fighting imaginary demons to gain control of .. . what exactly? Your own people?

It will only be a matter of time before any neo-fascist enterprise fails:

1. Either it is beaten down from outside forces  
or
2. it succeeds and starts consuming itself from within for want of a perceived enemy.

Nazi Germany suffered from both of these. It didn't manage to rid itself of its demons even when it conquered most of Europe and had exterminated literally millions of its perceived enemies (who were quite innocent) and even before it got push-back (from Russia ironically enough) and the other allies it was already crippled by internal fighting. 

Putin's Russia is an attempt to resurrect the one-party state of the Soviets and extend Russian influence. To do this it needs imaginary enemies (in this case the allegation that NATO is adversarial and out to invade it) and is willing to exterminate its own people to reinforce this narrative. Sooner or later it will devour itself from within. It's already corrupt as hell, dependent on exporting oil and gas to earn revenue but it can't help but frame the very people it sells to as its enemies.

there is no way this can end well for Russia. 


i agree and there's a nonproliferation lesson in this too...

How Ukraine Was Betrayed in Budapest

Kyiv gave up its nuclear weapons in return for security assurances. So much for that.

By The Editorial BoardFeb. 23, 2022 6:52 pm 

As the people of Ukraine steel themselves for a Russian attack, it’s worth recalling how the U.S. persuaded the country to give up its nuclear weapons. The event was the Budapest Memorandum of 1994, in which the U.S., Great Britain and Russia offered security assurances to the nation that had won independence when the Soviet Union dissolved.

That was the halcyon post-Cold War era when history had supposedly ended. Some 1,800 nuclear weapons were on Ukrainian territory, including short-range tactical weapons and air-launched cruise missiles. The U.S. wanted fewer countries to have fewer nukes, and U.S. credibility was at its peak.

The memo begins with the U.S., U.K. and Russia noting that Ukraine had committed “to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time.” Then the three countries “confirm” a half-dozen commitments to Ukraine.

The most important was to “reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.” They also pledged to “refrain from economic coercion” against Ukraine and to “seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine” in the event of an “act of aggression” against the country. Ukraine had returned all of the nuclear weapons to Russia by 1996.

Vladimir Putin made the Budapest Memorandum a dead letter with his first invasion of Ukraine in 2014. But the betrayal of Budapest isn’t forgotten in Kyiv, as President Volodymyr Zelensky noted bitterly in weekend remarks in Munich.

Budapest shows again the folly of trusting parchment promises in a world where autocrats think might makes right. More damaging is the message that nations give up their nuclear arsenals at their peril. That’s the lesson North Korea has learned, and Iran is following the same playbook as it connives to build the bomb even as it promises not to do so.

The inability of the U.S. to enforce its Budapest commitments will also echo in allied capitals that rely on America’s military assurances. Don’t be surprised if Japan or South Korea seek their own nuclear deterrent. If Americans want to know why they should care about Ukraine, nuclear proliferation is one reason. Betrayal has consequences, as the world seems destined to learn again the hard way.







NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 10:26am

 black321 wrote:

Makes one thing, what are the odds the Russians themselves might put an end (Ceasar like) to this?
 
{#Sick} omg, the look of fear on his face. 

as to internal solutions.. one can only hope.
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 10:25am

 miamizsun wrote:
as foolish as it is i'm pretty sure this was going to happen regardless peace
 
This is the bottom line.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 10:22am

btw, this twitter thread from Prof Talmadge is a bit sobering - because lucid.
black321

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 10:22am


Makes one thing, what are the odds the Russians themselves might put an end (Ceasar like) to this?
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 10:18am

 Ivanhoe wrote:
Taking this as a check list, Putin has achieved more than 50%: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... Another interesting perspective: https://twitter.com/PeterZeiha...
 
That fits the neo-fascist mold, wie das Faust aufs Auge, to use an apposite German phrase.. Fighting imaginary demons to gain control of .. . what exactly? Your own people??

It will only be a matter of time before any neo-fascist enterprise fails:

1. Either it is beaten down from outside forces  
or
2. it succeeds and starts consuming itself from within for want of a perceived enemy.

Nazi Germany suffered from both of these. It didn't manage to rid itself of its demons even when it conquered most of Europe and had exterminated literally millions of its perceived enemies (who were quite innocent) and even before it got push-back (from Russia ironically enough) and the other allies it was already crippled by internal fighting. 

Putin's Russia is an attempt to resurrect the one-party state of the Soviets and extend Russian influence. To do this it needs imaginary enemies (in this case the allegation that NATO is adversarial and out to invade it) and is willing to exterminate its own people to reinforce this narrative. Sooner or later it will devour itself from within. It's already corrupt as hell, dependent on exporting oil and gas to earn revenue but it can't help but frame the very people it sells to as its enemies.

there is no way this can end well for Russia. 
black321

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Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 8:38am

Was wondering how much US debt russia owned...not much, last i saw it was about $5-$6B in mid 2021...down from over $160B in 2014. 
China still owns over $1T, so there's that. 
This article dates back to 2018, when they cut another chunk.



Russia dumped 84% of its American debt. What that means

by Matt Egan @MattEganCNNJuly 30, 2018: 1:28 PM ETMnuchin: U.S. debt to China does not give them leverage

Russia has rapidly sold off the vast majority of its stash of American debt.

Between March and May, Russia's holdings of US Treasury bonds plummeted by $81 billion, representing 84% of its total US debt holdings.

The sudden debt dump may have contributed to a short-term spike in Treasury rates that spooked the market. 10-year Treasury yields topped 3% in April for the first time since 2014.

It also sparked a guessing game about Moscow's motivations. Maybe Russia just wanted to diversify its portfolio, as the central bank stated. Or perhaps Russia was seeking revenge for Washington's crippling sanctions on aluminum maker Rusal.

Either way, there's little debate over the long-term impact. Russia's selling has not hurt America's ability to borrow money.

That's because investors — particularly life insurers and pension funds that serve aging baby boomers — have a big appetite for fixed income. Treasury rates quickly descended back below 3% because demand for bonds continued to grow.

russia us debt chart



black321

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 7:52am

 kurtster wrote:

This was a done deal based on how Biden handled Afghanistan.



Yup, if Trump wasn't such a dumbass...loosing the election, or letting it get stolen from him, none of this would have happened.
If you really want to blame one person, pretty sure who that man is.
geoff_morphini

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 7:47am

 kcar wrote:

Aka Comic Relief...



Well, he has said to call him Crazy. He always proves it an apt name.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 7:47am

 steeler wrote:
Regarding the “why now” question: I read an interesting take on this yesterday, before the start of the invasion. Trump talked about NATO being obsolete and perhaps US withdrawing from it during his campaign and at times during his presidency. That plus Trump’s expressed disdain for allies, such as Germany. The gist: Putin may have thought the weakening and maybe even dissolution of NATO would occur under Trump.
 
That makes sense. I'd even go further and say it is not just the weakening and dissolution of NATO he hoped for. At the same time there was (still is) a simultaneous dearth of Russian troll factories and widespread swing to right-wing nationalism throughout many western countries. This may have given Putin cause to think the weak and decadent west would simply dissolve by itself due to its moral turpitude and he could stride forward as the leader of a new (old) era of Soviet glory and regain its  place as the leader of (Soviet) nations or something equally bizarre. The strong man bashing old fashioned morality into people by force if necessary. Neofascism is what I would call it, plain and simple. 

A chilling parallel: the Nazi invasion was announced with "4 am, bombing of Kyiv". This time around its "5 am, bombing of Kyiv".  Putin huilo indeed.

Now those dreams of neo-fascist glory are fading, it's kind of a last ditch, now or never thing. Just now we can all see his true face, as if anyone was in any doubt.
kcar

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 7:46am

 geoff_morphini wrote:


Hey Crazy!

Aka Comic Relief...

kcar

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 7:45am

 kurtster wrote:

This was a done deal based on how Biden handled Afghanistan.



Sorry, no. 

Russia's invasion is massive and well-coordinatef. It required a great deal of planning and preparation. Russia likely started planning this attack long before Biden's and even Trump's announcements on pulling out of Afghanistan.
geoff_morphini

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 7:42am

 kurtster wrote:

This was a done deal based on how Biden handled Afghanistan.



Hey Crazy!
marko86

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 7:38am

 kurtster wrote:

This was a done deal based on how Biden handled Afghanistan.



You mean for finishing what Trump wanted and started? It was a no win situation, unless you wanted to invest a lot more into it. Frankly I blame Obama for not getting us out sooner. Clearly Russia also did not learn anything for their time there.
steeler

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Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 7:21am

Regarding the “why now” question:

I read an interesting take on this yesterday, before the start of the invasion. Trump talked about NATO being obsolete and perhaps US withdrawing from it during his campaign and at times during his presidency. That plus Trump’s expressed disdain for allies, such as Germany. The gist: Putin may have thought the weakening and maybe even dissolution of NATO would occur under Trump.
miamizsun

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 7:10am

as foolish as it is i'm pretty sure this was going to happen regardless

peace
kurtster

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Posted: Feb 24, 2022 - 5:59am

This was a done deal based on how Biden handled Afghanistan.
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