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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Feminism: Catch the (Third?) Wave! Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
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hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 12:32pm

 MsJudi wrote:

Officer thinking, there, afl.

Here's what's weird for me as a feminist: I'm not against porn. I'm not exactly in favor of it, either, because I do believe that it offers a distorted view of women as sexual handmaidens to men, but 1) I'm all about free speech; 2) I believe adults should be the ones to decide individually what they read and watch and; 3) I know perfectly well that the women in the porn industry are payed far, far more than the men, so calling them "exploited" isn't exactly accurate.

Could it truly be that education- an excellent, unbiased education- really is the silver bullet for all of these issues? How in the world do we ever achieve it?

Complex problems, complex solutions, complex discussions. {#Ask} {#Stupid}

 

I am not anti-porn per se, but I have seen stuff that is truly demeaning, from face shots to gang rape.
MsJudi

MsJudi Avatar

Location: Houston, TX
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 12:32pm

 sirdroseph wrote:


Another not talked about aspect of the porn or adult entertainment industry in general is that the industry attracts women that are exhibitionists and actually enjoy what they do. Now, does this mean that a lot of women aren't exploited in this shady industry? Absolutely not, I have seen very few women that have enjoyed successful lives and careers without the industry eventually dragging them into drug addiction, poverty and poor health.  My point is that at first at least there are many women who actually enjoy and choose the lifestyle. To each his own I guess.

 
But on the other hand, do little girls generally grow up thinking, "I want to be a porn star when I grow up"? A lot of the women do say that they enjoy it, but few of them indicate that they turned to porn as their first career choice. Many of them resort to it because of economics. Still, if it floats their boat, who am I to try to shoot holes into someone else's deck?
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 12:27pm

 MsJudi wrote:

Officer thinking, there, afl.

Here's what's weird for me as a feminist: I'm not against porn. I'm not exactly in favor of it, either, because I do believe that it offers a distorted view of women as sexual handmaidens to men, but 1) I'm all about free speech; 2) I believe adults should be the ones to decide individually what they read and watch and; 3) I know perfectly well that the women in the porn industry are payed far, far more than the men, so calling them "exploited" isn't exactly accurate.

Could it truly be that education- an excellent, unbiased education- really is the silver bullet for all of these issues? How in the world do we ever achieve it?

Complex problems, complex solutions, complex discussions. {#Ask} {#Stupid}

 

Another not talked about aspect of the porn or adult entertainment industry in general is that the industry attracts women that are exhibitionists and actually enjoy what they do. Now, does this mean that a lot of women aren't exploited in this shady industry? Absolutely not, I have seen very few women that have enjoyed successful lives and careers without the industry eventually dragging them into drug addiction, poverty and poor health.  My point is that at first at least there are many women who actually enjoy and choose the lifestyle. To each his own I guess.


MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 12:26pm

 meower wrote:


i totally agree, and I'm not sure, other than wages (and educational access/teaching men and women about female leadership,) how much of our battle is political these days, and how much of it is about being strong women and mentoring strong women and working toward raising boys and girls to see a strong woman as, well a strength.

 



I'm with the black cat girl.
MsJudi

MsJudi Avatar

Location: Houston, TX
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 12:22pm

 aflanigan wrote:


I dunno, if disrespect for women is a cultural issue, if educating children in a way that teaches them to value and respect others is a cultural or social issue, then aren't cultural issues like these really political issues?  We know we can't simply wave a wand and legislate prejudice away; but we certainly have a lot of politicians doing battle over what and how our schools should be teaching.  So in that sense, maybe all cultural issues are political issues as well.

Maybe Tipper Gore, with her PMRC campaign, was trying in an overreaching way to create a more respectful culture. Maybe Marlo Thomas had the right idea for our country.  If banning video games, songs, books, magazines etc. that are perceived as disrespecting women is unconstitutional, maybe the most effective way of countering or diminishing the impact of such disrespectful messages is to offer a positive alternative.

 
Officer thinking, there, afl.

Here's what's weird for me as a feminist: I'm not against porn. I'm not exactly in favor of it, either, because I do believe that it offers a distorted view of women as sexual handmaidens to men, but 1) I'm all about free speech; 2) I believe adults should be the ones to decide individually what they read and watch and; 3) I know perfectly well that the women in the porn industry are payed far, far more than the men, so calling them "exploited" isn't exactly accurate.

Could it truly be that education- an excellent, unbiased education- really is the silver bullet for all of these issues? How in the world do we ever achieve it?

Complex problems, complex solutions, complex discussions. {#Ask} {#Stupid}


aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 12:10pm

 meower wrote:


i totally agree, and I'm not sure, other than wages (and educational access/teaching men and women about female leadership,) how much of our battle is political these days, and how much of it is about being strong women and mentoring strong women and working toward raising boys and girls to see a strong woman as, well a strength.

 

I dunno, if disrespect for women is a cultural issue, if educating children in a way that teaches them to value and respect others is a cultural or social issue, then aren't cultural issues like these really political issues?  We know we can't simply wave a wand and legislate prejudice away; but we certainly have a lot of politicians doing battle over what and how our schools should be teaching.  So in that sense, maybe all cultural issues are political issues as well.

Maybe Tipper Gore, with her PMRC campaign, was trying in an overreaching way to create a more respectful culture. Maybe Marlo Thomas had the right idea for our country.  If banning video games, songs, books, magazines etc. that are perceived as disrespecting women is unconstitutional, maybe the most effective way of countering or diminishing the impact of such disrespectful messages is to offer a positive alternative.
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 12:03pm

 aflanigan wrote:


Maybe we can have wise women like you do more mentoring of young ladies (refrain from smacking them, though!)  If they're smart, perhaps they'll listen. 

Some will probably not be ready to hear what women of your age and experience have to say.  Maybe getting more women who are older and wiser to become politically active (to help guard those tenuously held gains made in rights) is also necessary.

 

Women have been avoiding entering the political arena because of the nastiness, but this election showed real progress in this area.
meower

meower Avatar

Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 12:03pm

 MsJudi wrote:

I agree. And it shouldn't be just a woman's job to mentor young ladies- men are equally capable of being excellent examples and mentors to both girl and boys. IMO we need to present a united front, all of us, and mentor all of our children, not just the girls or the boys.

 

but/and so long as we're making 70centsonthedollar that could be hard to break through...... something else that bothers me, but isn't polical, is that when a film has mainly strong female charactors it's seen as a chickflick.... when a radio station plays two women in a row they're seen as being all female oriented.... and of course we can talk about the way porn objectifies women etc.....

What should change first? How we raise our kids or how women are portrayed? and how do you get more people to think the right way  (joke.)
MsJudi

MsJudi Avatar

Location: Houston, TX
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 12:01pm

 aflanigan wrote:


I think you're right.  As an adult volunteer over the years for BSA, youth soccer, Special Olympics, etc. I've tried to model respectful behavior towards others for the children I've interacted with.  Sometimes, an example set by an adult who is not related to us sinks in more deeply than rules and sayings repeated to us by our parents.

 
I can attest to this. Megan has brought home many friends over the years, most of whom I've loved like my own, and I've had more than one of them tell me in later years that they found my example in various subjects as helpful to them as their own parents'. We can lead the way without preaching to them (which just serves to shut them down, in my opinion), often just by behaving in the way we'd like them to behave as adults.
MsJudi

MsJudi Avatar

Location: Houston, TX
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 11:58am

 meower wrote:


i totally agree, and I'm not sure, other than wages (and educational access/teaching men and women about female leadership,) how much of our battle is political these days, and how much of it is about being strong women and mentoring strong women and working toward raising boys and girls to see a strong woman as, well a strength.

 
I agree. And it shouldn't be just a woman's job to mentor young ladies- men are equally capable of being excellent examples and mentors to both girl and boys. IMO we need to present a united front, all of us, and mentor all of our children, not just the girls or the boys.
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 11:57am

 MsJudi wrote:

The first and best thing we can do is provide a good example to our kids, to their friends and boyfriends, to our younger family members, our neighbors, our soccer team, our children's teachers and coaches, etc. etc. etc. The second thing we can do is to keep talking about it, to keep driving the point home that women aren't objects to be oogled, stalked, touched without consent, followed home, harassed based on their gender, whistled at when walking down the street, raped, exploited, underpaid, undereducated, undervalued, stoned to death, belittled for their bodies, spoken about in terms of their looks, their breasts, or their f*ckability.

I could go on. Shall I? {#Lol}

 

I think you're right.  As an adult volunteer over the years for BSA, youth soccer, Special Olympics, etc. I've tried to model respectful behavior towards others for the children I've interacted with.  Sometimes, an example set by an adult who is not related to us sinks in more deeply than rules and sayings repeated to us by our parents.

By all means, go on.  That's what this topic is here for!  Dialogue is a tool for understanding, and hopefully, learning as well.
meower

meower Avatar

Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 11:54am

 aflanigan wrote:


I'm willing to engage in dialogue with anyone who wants to discuss the topic earnestly.  What's your opinion?  How can we get the next generation of men to be more respectful of women's rights?  How can we get the next generation of women to not take the rights they have for granted, and to help them deal with (and overcome) the prejudices women still face?

 

thanx. see above answer to judi,
meower

meower Avatar

Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 11:54am

 MsJudi wrote:

The first and best thing we can do is provide a good example to our kids, to their friends and boyfriends, to our younger family members, our neighbors, our soccer team, our children's teachers and coaches, etc. etc. etc. The second thing we can do is to keep talking about it, to keep driving the point home that women aren't objects to be oogled, stalked, touched without consent, followed home, harassed based on their gender, whistled at when walking down the street, raped, exploited, underpaid, undereducated, undervalued, stoned to death, belittled for their bodies, spoken about in terms of their looks, their breasts, or their f*ckability.

I could go on. Shall I? {#Lol}

 

i totally agree, and I'm not sure, other than wages (and educational access/teaching men and women about female leadership,) how much of our battle is political these days, and how much of it is about being strong women and mentoring strong women and working toward raising boys and girls to see a strong woman as, well a strength.
MsJudi

MsJudi Avatar

Location: Houston, TX
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 11:52am

 aflanigan wrote:

Hence, my original question:

What do you think third wave feminists should be doing to correct the situation and make progress regarding equal rights and respect for women?
So how do we teach young men to be respectful?  Send them to military academies?  Put them in time out?

 
The first and best thing we can do is provide a good example to our kids, to their friends and boyfriends, to our younger family members, our neighbors, our soccer team, our children's teachers and coaches, etc. etc. etc. The second thing we can do is to keep talking about it, to keep driving the point home that women aren't objects to be oogled, stalked, touched without consent, followed home, harassed based on their gender, whistled at when walking down the street, raped, exploited, underpaid, undereducated, undervalued, stoned to death, belittled for their bodies, spoken about in terms of their looks, their breasts, or their f*ckability.

I could go on. Shall I? {#Lol}
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 11:52am

 meower wrote:


So, a couple of other people have "answered" that question or at least started a dialogue around it, and it seems like people (you?  ) want to extend the conversation/argument etc with HC rather than engage in other dialouge presented..... I get that you're interested in her opinion..... and all, but......

 

I'm willing to engage in dialogue with anyone who wants to discuss the topic earnestly.  What's your opinion?  How can we get the next generation of men to be more respectful of women's rights?  How can we get the next generation of women to not take the rights they have for granted, and to help them deal with (and overcome) the prejudices women still face?
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 11:49am

 Skaterella wrote:
i think young women (college age or there about) have a false sense of security about the rights that women have gained in the recent past.  This election was hopefully a wake up call that there is a powerful group of men out there who want to see women's rights diminished.  

Sometimes when I see young women in the work place I want to give some of them a smack.  Women have and continue to work to be taken seriously and its disheartening to see young women who don't get how important it is to be professional.  When I was working with my friend at her law firm we went before a judge one day and this young woman right out of law school showed up in a jean jacket. she looked like she was going to the mall.  i had another young woman show up at the office when i was in private practice with so little clothing on i had to go get her a lab coat to put on to cover up.  Maybe that is part of the stereotype that young women are buying into.  (and then there are the 22 year olds who flirt with their 42 year old married mentor... but that's another story.)
the issue of "having it all" is an interesting one.  i sorta grew up thinking i really could have it all.  i could have a career and have babies and raise a family.  and then i realized you really can't have it all. at least you can't have it all at the same time.  when i figured that out i sorta felt like I'd been duped.  so i went into starting a family thinking —this is doable.  what i ended up doing was working shitty jobs that I could work around taking care of the kids. i had not a single benefit for the first 15 years of my career.  
it was my choice to put my kids ahead of my career and i wouldn't change that decision but I am enormously grateful that i took a bit different route and got a job with  a pension and benefits because now that my husband has decided this whole family/wife /responsibilty thing its really not all that fun, I am able to take care of the kids and myself financially.  i'm really lucky.  i think a lot of women are not in a position to do that.  So...I guess I'm thinking that we've come a long way but we are on tenuous ground and we have a ways to go in really acheiving equality and educating younger women about the tenuous nature of the whole process.
         

 

Maybe we can have wise women like you do more mentoring of young ladies (refrain from smacking them, though!)  If they're smart, perhaps they'll listen. 

Some will probably not be ready to hear what women of your age and experience have to say.  Maybe getting more women who are older and wiser to become politically active (to help guard those tenuously held gains made in rights) is also necessary.
meower

meower Avatar

Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 11:34am

 aflanigan wrote:

Hence, my original question:

What do you think third wave feminists should be doing to correct the situation and make progress regarding equal rights and respect for women?
So how do we teach young men to be respectful?  Send them to military academies?  Put them in time out?

 

So, a couple of other people have "answered" that question or at least started a dialogue around it, and it seems like people (you?  ) want to extend the conversation/argument etc with HC rather than engage in other dialouge presented..... I get that you're interested in her opinion..... and all, but......
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 11:04am

 aflanigan wrote:

Hence, my original question:

What do you think third wave feminists should be doing to correct the situation and make progress regarding equal rights and respect for women?
So how do we teach young men to be respectful?  Send them to military academies?  Put them in time out?

 
That's a complex question without a simple answer. Parental guidance, setting an example of course. You teach children to have respect for women, just like you teach them to respect animals, the elderly, everyone. Military academies? That would be the worst place to teach respect for women. They are one of the most chauvinistic orgs that exist. One quarter of all women serving in the military have been raped.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 11:04am

 aflanigan wrote:

Hence, my original question:

What do you think third wave feminists should be doing to correct the situation and make progress regarding equal rights and respect for women?
So how do we teach young men to be respectful?  Send them to military academies?  Put them in time out?

 

I'm no expert but I am pretty sure the military is not the best place to teach respect for women.{#Eek}
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 26, 2012 - 10:41am

 hippiechick wrote:

This is considered free speech I guess, because who are we to judge.

However, we can teach our sons to be respectful of women and that women aren't whores and hookers.

 
Hence, my original question:

What do you think third wave feminists should be doing to correct the situation and make progress regarding equal rights and respect for women?
So how do we teach young men to be respectful?  Send them to military academies?  Put them in time out?


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