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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Immigration Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, ... 37, 38, 39  Next
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Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Dec 22, 2022 - 1:59pm

 haresfur wrote:


It is interesting to look back on about the first 150 years of Europeans in N. America (not counting the Vikings). People were moving freely back and forth across the borders. So you would think that the constitutional originalists would be on board with that. White people, anyway. These days Canada brings in far more refugees than the US, in spite of a much smaller population and economy.

I don't think there is an easy answer to how to frame the policies. The lines between economic, social, and political migrants are fuzzy. It is tricky in Australia with the proximity to some pretty awful places in Asia. We have a significant Sri Lankan-Tamil population but how much migration is it reasonable to accept when the Tamil area of India is right there? And probably over half of Afghanis would be better off here than there. Then there's Myranmar... As a pragmatist, I think the limiting factor on immigration is not as much about how many people could be absorbed but by the number that could be allowed in without a social backlash making for more restrictions in the long run. 


Borders are an anachronism. We are one species on one finite planet. We need to start acting like it.
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 22, 2022 - 1:49pm

 miamizsun wrote:


i'm going to say this again (and again)

immigration is one of our super powers
allowing people to "move" to a country/system where they are free to peacefully produce and express is paramount





It is interesting to look back on about the first 150 years of Europeans in N. America (not counting the Vikings). People were moving freely back and forth across the borders. So you would think that the constitutional originalists would be on board with that. White people, anyway. These days Canada brings in far more refugees than the US, in spite of a much smaller population and economy.

I don't think there is an easy answer to how to frame the policies. The lines between economic, social, and political migrants are fuzzy. It is tricky in Australia with the proximity to some pretty awful places in Asia. We have a significant Sri Lankan-Tamil population but how much migration is it reasonable to accept when the Tamil area of India is right there? And probably over half of Afghanis would be better off here than there. Then there's Myranmar... As a pragmatist, I think the limiting factor on immigration is not as much about how many people could be absorbed but by the number that could be allowed in without a social backlash making for more restrictions in the long run. 
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 22, 2022 - 10:41am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


I went to a thing where "liberals" were paired up with "conservatives" and you know which side I was recruited for but when the immigration subject was universally agreed to be a matter of degree, I dropped a Lazyism on them (I think) with "what right does a government have to restrict a person's freedom of movement?" and that was fun.


trouble-maker!
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 22, 2022 - 9:51am

 miamizsun wrote:


i'm going to say this again (and again)

immigration is one of our super powers
allowing people to "move" to a country/system where they are free to peacefully produce and express is paramount





I went to a thing where "liberals" were paired up with "conservatives" and you know which side I was recruited for but when the immigration subject was universally agreed to be a matter of degree, I dropped a Lazyism on them (I think) with "what right does a government have to restrict a person's freedom of movement?" and that was fun.
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 22, 2022 - 4:13am

 haresfur wrote:

It's a system designed to fail. But fail slowly to keep people in limbo. But Legal Immigration! Right?



i'm going to say this again (and again)

immigration is one of our super powers
allowing people to "move" to a country/system where they are free to peacefully produce and express is paramount



haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 21, 2022 - 2:32pm

 miamizsun wrote:
good gob that's ridiculous


It's a system designed to fail. But fail slowly to keep people in limbo. But Legal Immigration! Right?

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 21, 2022 - 1:01pm

good gob that's ridiculous
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 21, 2022 - 9:44am


NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 10:45am

At the risk of repetition


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 10:30am

 kurtster wrote:
And just what jobs are waiting for them ?  We already have an over supply of unskilled workers in case you haven't noticed.  And they still are not allowed to be employed legally.

The skilled workers that we need generally enter legally.  At least as far as I can tell.

You not paying attention doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

I've lost count of how many businesses I used to frequent (mostly restaurants) that have closed in my area due to labor shortage. Getting help in the ag sector is driving farmers out of business and forcing a lot of consolidation. Tried to hire a truck driver lately? Burger-flipping wages are over $20/hour here.

And it isn't just here; entry-level jobs are going begging all over the country. How can you not notice this?

The US government makes it extraordinarily difficult for workers of any skill level to enter the country legally. Skilled workers who cross illegally end up in menial jobs because they don't have the documents to get work in their fields.

And no, we don't have anything approaching open borders—as has been explained to you countless times. If we ever do you'll hear me celebrating.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 10:20am

 black321 wrote:

You are making the large, and historically wrong assumption these migrants will enter the welfare state and not the job market, further building the economy, and thereby supporting the welfare state 
 
And just what jobs are waiting for them ?  We already have an over supply of unskilled workers in case you haven't noticed.  And they still are not allowed to be employed legally.

The skilled workers that we need generally enter legally.  At least as far as I can tell.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 10:10am

 kurtster wrote:

Not fighting words.  Just an observation of the facts available.

Regarding Sanders, I don't have the quote but I remember his remarks about the necessity of a closed system for a welfare state to function properly made several years ago.

The internal funding of the welfare state is a finite resource.  It requires fixing the numbers of beneficiaries to the limits of the funds available.  When more and more people are added into the system without increases of funding, it fails.  How do you increase the funding ?  Print more money ?  Add to the debt with deficit spending ?  Sooner or later, the bills will come due.  The old Thatcher quote, socialism works until you run out of other peoples' money ...

You are making the large, and historically wrong assumption these migrants will enter the welfare state and not the job market, further building the economy, and thereby supporting the welfare state 

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 9:18am

 kurtster wrote:


I was trying to respond to a number of your claims that you spread across more than one post. One of your claims (Afaict) is that Biden and the Democrats want open borders to bring in more immigrants in order to boost the number of Democratic voters.
If you want to stick to this, so be it:
"How you can have a successful welfare state with an unlimited amount of participants entering into the system with no increase in resources ?"

If you had unlimited number of participants entering with no increase in resources (I take it you mean resources available to the welfare system), that situation would be untenable. 
But that notion reads like a bad hypothetical in an introductory macroeconomic policy class dealing with basic models. We have nothing like that situation occurring in the US. 
You're the king of buffoonery here, btw, so your cries that I've muddled your thoughts are pretty amusing. Still stuck in the pumpkin patch?
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 9:09am

Lest it gets lost in this debate, the provision known as Title 42 (Title  42 is the title of the U.S. Code devoted to health provisions) is an emergency health provision authorized because of the pandemic. It is not meant to be — and cannot be — a permanent border control measure,. It has to be lifted at some point. One can debate whether that time is now, but one cannot legitimately argue that it should be permanent. 
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 8:48am

 kcar wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
A successful welfare state which functions on the redistribution of wealth can only exist in a closed system, which you very well know. The "wealth" being redistributed is a finite resource. So tell me how you can have a successful welfare state with unrestricted access to the benefits.  

1. We do not have open borders. Biden and the Democratic party do not want open borders. 

2. Illegal immigrants in the US do not have "unrestricted access to the benefits." 

3. Non-citizens in the US, including illegal immigrants, cannot vote in federal, state and most local elections.

  https://www.usa.gov/who-can-vo...
U.S. immigrants are rising in number, but just half are eligible to vote3a. "This current snapshot shows that unauthorized Hispanic immigrants also lean more Democratic than Republican—though to a lesser degree than Hispanic immigrants who are currently eligible to vote. And it’s uncertain whether these unauthorized immigrants, many of whom are currently unaffiliated, would adopt similar political affiliations and voting patterns if given the chance to naturalize." https://www.pewresearch.org/fa... 4. Recent immigrants are less politically engaged and involved than US-born citizens.  So letting more illegal immigrants into this country is not a clear electoral win for Democrats. Also, the perception that the Democratic party is lax on illegal immigration is one of the biggest reasons for increased GOP voter turnout and campaign donations. 
 
Good grief, where to begin ?

I was making observations of what can negatively impact the welfare state as an entity.

Nothing in your responses addresses the question which was simply put ...

So tell me how you can have a successful welfare state with unrestricted access to the benefits ?????

2 does not answer the question.  It just offers your take on the access to benefits by a specific group.

Maybe if I rephrase the question for you ...

How you can have a successful welfare state with an unlimited amount of participants entering into the system with no increase in resources ?

I'll address your point number 3 separately later as you have totally missed the boat on that one and ran to the wrong goal post.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 8:36am

 black321 wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

Consensus smensuss.  Pass all the laws you want.  Biden will not enforce them, which is his Constitutional job. Biden wants opens borders.  The democratic party as a whole wants open borders.  And that is what we have right now. Problem is that a welfare state cannot function / exist for very long with open borders.  Even a good socialist like Bernie Sanders knows that.

Sounds like fighting words. 
good luck 
 
Not fighting words.  Just an observation of the facts available.

Regarding Sanders, I don't have the quote but I remember his remarks about the necessity of a closed system for a welfare state to function properly made several years ago.

The internal funding of the welfare state is a finite resource.  It requires fixing the numbers of beneficiaries to the limits of the funds available.  When more and more people are added into the system without increases of funding, it fails.  How do you increase the funding ?  Print more money ?  Add to the debt with deficit spending ?  Sooner or later, the bills will come due.  The old Thatcher quote, socialism works until you run out of other peoples' money ...
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 7:45am

 kurtster wrote:

Consensus smensuss.  Pass all the laws you want.  Biden will not enforce them, which is his Constitutional job.

Biden wants opens borders.  The democratic party as a whole wants open borders.  And that is what we have right now.

Problem is that a welfare state cannot function / exist for very long with open borders.  Even a good socialist like Bernie Sanders knows that.

Sounds like fighting words. 
good luck 

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Dec 17, 2022 - 11:40pm

 kurtster wrote:


A successful welfare state which functions on the redistribution of wealth can only exist in a closed system, which you very well know.

The "wealth" being redistributed is a finite resource.

So tell me how you can have a successful welfare state with unrestricted access to the benefits.  

1. We do not have open borders. Biden and the Democratic party do not want open borders. 

2. Illegal immigrants in the US do not have "unrestricted access to the benefits." 

3. Non-citizens in the US, including illegal immigrants, cannot vote in federal, state and most local elections. 

https://www.usa.gov/who-can-vo...


U.S. immigrants are rising in number, but just half are eligible to vote

3a. "This current snapshot shows that unauthorized Hispanic immigrants also lean more Democratic than Republican—though to a lesser degree than Hispanic immigrants who are currently eligible to vote. And it’s uncertain whether these unauthorized immigrants, many of whom are currently unaffiliated, would adopt similar political affiliations and voting patterns if given the chance to naturalize."

https://www.pewresearch.org/fa...

4. Recent immigrants are less politically engaged and involved than US-born citizens. 

So letting more illegal immigrants into this country is not a clear electoral win for Democrats. Also, the perception that the Democratic party is lax on illegal immigration is one of the biggest reasons for increased GOP voter turnout and campaign donations. 

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2022 - 9:21pm

 R_P wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
Problem is that a welfare state cannot function / exist for very long with open borders.

"Muh entitlements!" IGMFU
 

A successful welfare state which functions on the redistribution of wealth can only exist in a closed system, which you very well know.

The "wealth" being redistributed is a finite resource.

So tell me how you can have a successful welfare state with unrestricted access to the benefits.  
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2022 - 3:25pm

 kurtster wrote:
Problem is that a welfare state cannot function / exist for very long with open borders.

"Muh entitlements!"

IGMFU
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