The endgame was going to be ugly no matter who was in The White House. Anyone here really believe that the previous regime administration would have done any better?
I do think we're obligated to evacuate those who actively helped us - and their families.
Didn't read his piece. Sounds like he might be playing to his fanbase. But Polly Toynbee's suggestion of legalising drugs as a solution to the Afghan crisis made me raise my eyebrows more than a little.
In most of the post-war period, authoritarian governments have been far more successful in interdicting narcotics than western democracies. If global heroin supply was a serious issue, the USA would never have invaded and occupied Afghanistan.
In a similar fashion, if womens' rights were a priority issue, the US government would never have given arms and other forms of support to the Taliban and others who sought to kick out the Soviet army.
The successful ethnic cleansing of the Holy Lands and the subjugation of the remaining Semitic inhabitants are what matter to the USA.
The Taliban and their pathological loathing of women didnât spring from nowhere â the patriarchal structure of Afghan society was clear. Women were still shrouded in burqas with vision-blocking grilles.
Is that really helpful Mr. Jenkins? Is it insightful? Are you ignorant and incompetent Mr. Jenkins? Have you ever travelled traditional Muslim societies and actually talked to people?
Given your country's record on racist killings of innocent civilians, I would dial it back Mr. Jenkins.
Didn't read his piece. Sounds like he might be playing to his fanbase. But Polly Toynbee's suggestion of legalising drugs as a solution to the Afghan crisis made me raise my eyebrows more than a little.
The Taliban and their pathological loathing of women didnât spring from nowhere â the patriarchal structure of Afghan society was clear. Women were still shrouded in burqas with vision-blocking grilles.
Is that really helpful Mr. Jenkins? Is it insightful? Are you ignorant and incompetent Mr. Jenkins? Have you ever travelled traditional Muslim societies and actually talked to people?
Given your country's record on racist killings of innocent civilians, I would dial it back Mr. Jenkins.
Great article in Politico about Afghan social structure, especially as it relates to warfare. Allegiances shift constantly - commanders trade/barter personnel as a matter of course. Individual soldiers/fighters/insurgents routinely switch sides when the political winds shift. They've done it that way for millenia. U.S. (and Russian, and everybody else who went there) military failed to understand that's how Afghan society works. All the weaponry and training in the world will not change it. c.
The adage applies: once you go in, you might not be able to get out. The foreign policy Hotel California effect. So, yes, this lands first and foremost on the doorstep of the W Bush administration. That is not to excuse the Obama, Trump, and Biden administrations. Among the many things bothering me about this debacle and catastrophe is the underlying hypocrisy. When we go in, yes, we say that we have an American security interest in doing so (in this case, the Taliban was harboring in Afghanistan the Al-Qaeda operatives behind the 9-11 attacks), but we also say we are there to help, in this case, the Afghan people. Now, as we are evacuating, all you hear is that we no longer have a vested American security interest worth the costs to us. . The “we can’t solve all the problems around the world” is valid in and of itself — in isolation — but it seems that determination needs to be part of the calculus at the time we make the decision to intervene militarily, ousting the existing government and installing another and working to secure and transform a society. It should not just be evoked when the proverbial brass ring proves to be outside our reach on the merry-go-round. . It’s complex, I know, and obviously above my intellectual and strategical grasp. Still, it burns.
Sounds to me like you have a pretty good grasp of it. (he says, standing at the bottom of the ladder looking up at Steeler on the climbing wall).
I reckon this invasion was bound to fail from the get-go. There has been a long line of such failures in Afghanistan and nobody can say the US military were unaware of this, yet exactly the same cultural blindness prevailed as with all the other invasions. As the Taliban say, "you have the clocks, we have the time."
If the Taliban is savvy (and it looks so far like they may have learned a thing or two) they will avoid the excesses of their last rule and install a fairer, more decent society that gels with local expectations. This would win them huge support, not just in Afghanistan but also among all the other disaffected Muslims out there. One shouldn't underestimate in what low esteem the west is held among this group. They view "us" as morally bankrupt and about to collapse as a result of our over-consumption, pettiness, and crass individualism. Trump's short reign didn't really do much to persuade them otherwise. The stories I heard of drunken orgies among the foreign "consultants" in Kabul probably didn't help the image of the West much either.
But a Taliban that manages to install "good" government (using the local definition of good, not mine) could become a really powerful force. If they are sensible they'll avoid the mistakes they made last time that brought the wrath of the world upon them. The big question is going to be how large that intersection between western values and their values will be, for this is the realm where we can talk, negotiate and make deals.
The position of women already seems to be one thing where we will never agree. But how willing will we be to turn a blind eye to it? How willing will other powers (Russia, China) be? What will a strong Afghanistan mean for the Uighurs? It will be interesting to see how China plays its hand in the coming years.
Sorry, can't view the video here... blocked by YT as restricted.
Anyone who tries bringing democracy to a foreign country in a foreign culture for 20 years has taken over a responsibility to protect, not the corrupt Afghan politicians and the bribed provincial governors, but the teachers, the journalists, the students, and the women and girls who believed, there might really be a world in color for them behind burkas.
By the way, anyone saying this came by surprise, must explain why there have been three million internal refugees for years. Why more than two million Afghans in Iran and Pakistan have kept harrowing away from their families and soil... certainly not, because the Taliban offensive came so surprisingly, as some politicians and the media keep telling us eagerly.
Funny. We could try appealing to traditional rules of military engagement but neither the Israelis or the Americans seem particularly interested. Ever.
The occupation was never successful. The US-backed state never controlled the entirety of the country. So there were bound to be many displaced persons, refugees, etc.
But otherwise, the Taliban takeover should have been fully expected despite any and all self-serving narratives.
Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth
Posted:
Aug 16, 2021 - 2:50pm
The adage applies: once you go in, you might not be able to get out. The foreign policy Hotel California effect. So, yes, this lands first and foremost on the doorstep of the W Bush administration. That is not to excuse the Obama, Trump, and Biden administrations. Among the many things bothering me about this debacle and catastrophe is the underlying hypocrisy. When we go in, yes, we say that we have an American security interest in doing so (in this case, the Taliban was harboring in Afghanistan the Al-Qaeda operatives behind the 9-11 attacks), but we also say we are there to help, in this case, the Afghan people. Now, as we are evacuating, all you hear is that we no longer have a vested American security interest worth the costs to us.
.
The âwe canât solve all the problems around the worldâ is valid in and of itself â in isolation â but it seems that determination needs to be part of the calculus at the time we make the decision to intervene militarily, ousting the existing government and installing another and working to secure and transform a society. It should not just be evoked when the proverbial brass ring proves to be outside our reach on the merry-go-round.
.
Itâs complex, I know, and obviously above my intellectual and strategical grasp. Still, it burns.
If the first thing they do after we leave is a fundamentalist theocracy, then I wonder what we've actually brought them. Obviously it wasn't democracy.
A heretical question on the side: Have the Taliban actually attacked or occupied another country? Overthrown governments in other countries? Built military bases there? Waged a drone war against wedding parties?
Call that PR if you will...
You do realize you posted about the US interest in Lithium? Suggesting that there is money in the ground was PR.
In view of the current situation, I would like to refer to this message from 12 years ago that Afghanistan is sitting on huge lithium deposits that are urgently needed for battery production.
stealing the code for that.
