it looks like i've started my first meme

who knew?

I suspect pier instruction only works for stevedores.

I suspect pier instruction only works for stevedores.

I suspect pier instruction only works for stevedores.

pier instruction/training or self taught

I've often been bewildered by the whole "need a degree" stuff. I have a friend who had to get an associates degree to be a park ranger - basically plowing roads, participating in controlled fires, etc. Then there's my own spouse who flunked out of college twice but made the reason for his flunking (goofing around on the computers back in the early days) into a career. Pretty much EVERY job he's ever had required a degree, but his experience has trumped that. He wouldn't succeed in the same way today, I'm afraid. Us computing dinosaurs used to get a kick out of the CS majors coming into the industry. Book learning did NOT prepare them for the trench (fun) jobs.

Sure, but the difference is you were after a degree/education. If we send the boy just because everyone should go to college, it's doomed to failure. If he finds himself wanting it, then cool.

Sure, but the difference is you were after a degree/education. If we send the boy just because everyone should go to college, it's doomed to failure. If he finds himself wanting it, then cool.

Being crap at book learning doesn't necessarily mean college is a bad thing. My brother and I both navigated it successfully using different strategies.  He went to a large Uni and applied his genius to figuring out how to get by while using the minimal effort. (When he was in High School they had standardised exams but students with a good enough record through the year didn't have to take them.  He decided it was much easier to read the text the night before the exam than to do all those assignments during the year).

I went to a small liberal arts school with small classes and lots of personal attention from the professors who managed to encourage/cajole/drag me through the program. Somehow they brought out the best in me.

We're there. The girl will thrive in college (our biggest challenge will be steering her toward a useful major). The boy will not. He's sharp as a tack but has his dad's knack for book-learnin'. I certainly would have been better served to have a focused non-college plan. Well, after the 2-year AS that I got locally, anyway. We're assuming he's going to get that alternative plan.

So far I don't think middle class parents are convinced.

Well it's in the best interest of everyone who has a degree to make it stay that way. I know a guy who flunked out of college who's smarter than any of us, and worked his way up to fairly upper management in the oil industry... who considered transferring to a local business so he didn't have to travel. It would have been a huge step down in responsibility, pay, etc. but he put in for it anyway. Didn't even get a second look... because it's a small town, he heard back that the college was the problem... no one would hire him because if it didn't work out, their boss would have fired both of them.

How do we change the national dialog away from the current mantra of "four year degree or you'r going to fail as an adult"? If middle class parents start valuing vocational ed, the schools will probably reemerge to accept their dollars. 

I agree with Vo-Ed and Vo-Tech, but being employed in higher ed, and one of 9 legacy children to attend the same school, it's hard for me to encourage one of my sons to pursue a vocation, though I really think it might be his route.

I heard the unemployment rate for college grads is around 7 percent. Maybe you mean half can't find a career in the field they studied in, and settle for a lower-wage job? That sounds more likely to me.

I did throw out a lot below, so we should probably stick to one issue at a time, and college is a good start, I suppose.

I mostly agree that college is not really appropriate for everyone, especially every graduating HS senior. I think bringing back Vo-Ed or Vo-tech training would be good as well. How do we change the national dialog away from the current mantra of "four year degree or you'r going to fail as an adult"? If middle class parents start valuing vocational ed, the schools will probably reemerge to accept their dollars. 

You put a lot on the table there, bud.

I'll start with the free tuition thingy.  I think its a bad idea out of the box, at least for 4 year institutions.  The widely accepted stat for grads is that half cannot find a job upon graduation.  Why compound that and make it worse ?  We already have Pell Grants which can cover nearly all costs for a community college.  Its how I did mine and got an Associates degree basically fully paid for.  

I believe that a 2 year degree is more practical and leads to quicker and surer employment than a 4 year degree.  Too much worth is placed on a 4 year and the return for the cost of tuition is dismal presently.  Not everyone is college material.  A renewed emphasis on Vo-Ed training might be a better approach, providing training for jobs that do exist and have openings.

I've long been an advocate for community colleges over a 4 year institution for several reasons.  First the cost, much lower per hour, the fact that a two year transferable degree sure looks better on a job ap than 'some college' and lastly, if a 4 year is the ultimate goal, no one will hold an associates / bachelor combination against you.  Its what I have.  Its the name of the school on the 4 year that matters most, more than whether or not you did all 4 years there.  

That's my opener ...