what is he lookin at?

Conversely, we as a nation need to grow a conscience, so that we will elect a government that will take us back to our previous position of leadership when it comes to ethics and morality, and catch up with the rest of the civilized world in this regard.

I disagree about governmental self-prosecution.  Ever since Spiro Agnew went to prison, and Richard Nixon fled from office to escape a prison cell of his own, the notion that "if we ignore and deny, it will go away" has become epidemic in US government.  The problem is that it does not work...EVER!

 

 

If you're referring to things that take place covertly amongst the intelligence community, that is completely different from overtly kidnapping people from sovereign nations, and parading them around like prizes.  The former has a long tradition of many unwritten rules, and tends to work quite well for what it does.  The latter is an exercise in grandiosity that takes "the ugly American" to criminal depths.  We should not be surprised that it accomplishes the exact opposite of what it claims to do.

It's the economy, stupid...

lets be honest abu ghraib was a fake scandal...it was fake torture...and all  the more tragic because of that...
it  was the worst pr that could have happened...and if it was sanctioned, surely cameras would have been forbidden.
apart from the humiliation, no terrorists were harmed. should never have happened and the us army was responsible for
putting a stop to it and prosecuting the idiots responsible.

lets be honest abu ghraib was a fake scandal...it was fake torture...and all  the more tragic because of that...
it  was the worst pr that could have happened...and if it was sanctioned, surely cameras would have been forbidden.
apart from the humiliation, no terrorists were harmed. should never have happened and the us army was responsible for
putting a stop to it and prosecuting the idiots responsible.

MK, for an intelligent man, you are extremely naive. It has been proven that these orders came from a much higher place. Cheney himself admitted that W. himself signed off on these orders.

If you want to argue, argue with facts, not the Party line.

Let's not forget that the immature behavior of the reservists was inadvertently allowing photographs into the mainstream. While this necessitated the cover up scapegoating the troops and General Karpinski, the real crux of the issue is policy itself, which is why many of us believe the higher ups should be held to account. You may recall, it was Gitmo Commander General Geoffrey Miller who called for the Gitmoization of Abu Ghraib at the behest of SecDef. Donald Rumsfeld. The interrogation tactics used went well beyond waterboarding. Indeed, after reviewing Pentagon documents, the ACLU concluded 21 prisoners were killed. Colonel Karpinski (following demotion) herself has admitted that many of the prisoners were hidden from the Red Cross, a direct violation of The Geneva Convention..

MK, for an intelligent man, you are extremely naive. It has been proven that these orders came from a much higher place. Cheney himself admitted that W. himself signed off on these orders.

If you want to argue, argue with facts, not the Party line.

ari...
Possible. Very possible that Mr. Cheney is trying to use a very clever ruse. But, I doubt it. Mr. Dennis Blair, intel czar, has stated that some solid intel was gleamed from enhanced techniques. That does two things: it buttresses Mr. Cheney's claim and cold stones claims that enchanced methods yielded nothing of use. Somewhere in between, lies the truth. Because of Mr. Cheney's push and Mr. Blair's comments, I am left with the believe that the champion of change is anything but. Instead, as I thought all along, Mr. Obama is just another politician, albeit one who managed the old wool pulling trick.
As for an ensuing firestorm, that has already taken place: to wit, the pathetic antics of Speaker Pelosi on this matter.
As for the GIs at Abu Ghraib: what would Mr. Cheney have done? Step aside because a handful of immature soldiers, 8,000 miles away, decided to engage in immature behavior? Some folks will never be satisfied on the resolution of that episode. Some will forever wish someone very high up, perhaps all the way up, was not taken down by an action they had no control over.

mk

ari...
Possible. Very possible that Mr. Cheney is trying to use a very clever ruse. But, I doubt it. Mr. Dennis Blair, intel czar, has stated that some solid intel was gleamed from enhanced techniques. That does two things: it buttresses Mr. Cheney's claim and cold stones claims that enchanced methods yielded nothing of use. Somewhere in between, lies the truth. Because of Mr. Cheney's push and Mr. Blair's comments, I am left with the believe that the champion of change is anything but. Instead, as I thought all along, Mr. Obama is just another politician, albeit one who managed the old wool pulling trick.
As for an ensuing firestorm, that has already taken place: to wit, the pathetic antics of Speaker Pelosi on this matter.
As for the GIs at Abu Ghraib: what would Mr. Cheney have done? Step aside because a handful of immature soldiers, 8,000 miles away, decided to engage in immature behavior? Some folks will never be satisfied on the resolution of that episode. Some will forever wish someone very high up, perhaps all the way up, was not taken down by an action they had no control over.

mk

Perhaps Mr. Cheney is bluffing, knows the documents can't be released in toto because a firestorm would ensue. Don't forget, Mr. Cheney knew that torture was a political issue and he could've released documents supporting his side, if such documents exist, while still in office. Personally, it's very difficult for me to respect a man, well men, actually, who let a a bunch of undereducated West Virginian reservists take the fall for Abu Ghraib.

Eleventh...
Thank you...and yes, disagree without being personally disagreeable
Some would agree the release of certain Gitmo memos is the start of a healing process. I could not disagree more. Like others, I see the release of select memos as nothing but pure politics. Mr. Obama asks that we look forward, while never missing a beat on looking backward in order to bash Mr. Bush and his policies-decisions. Along comes Mr. Cheney, noting the selectivity of the memos released and he simply request: release those that show solid intel was gleamed from some Gitmo detainees. The argument that nothing came of the procedures used can be knocked aside or not; release those memos requested by Mr. Cheney. The maddness, the insult actually, from Team Obama that doing so would jeaopardize methodologies is voodoo wording: the memos released already spell out methodologies. Is Mr. Obama fearful that Mr. Cheney has an argument to make, one that supports his, Mr. Cheney's, assertions? An argument that would partially deflate those of Mr. Obama?
This is pure, raw, partisan politics in play and national security is being used by Mr. Obama for a game where he sets the rules. One could also argue that selective transparency is being used, too.
with regards,
mk

thanks MK for the good wishes..and the same to you & your family....we agree to disagree...

I don't agree with your belief on water boarding (and apparently neither do many many sources...I'm linking to Wikipedia here (which we can debate about it's legitimacy and intellectual veracity, but it does give several links to viable sources which is why I include it as a reasonable summary) link is here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding  

I am not saying that which has been done to other individuals (like Daniel Pearl & Nick Berg) is OK...you're right,  no one spoke for them....but "an eye for an eye" is a principle we as Americans strenuously fight to oppose in favor of upholding that which is a higher value purpose....namely that 2 wrongs don't make a right.  Slamming planes into buildings isn't torture, it's mass murder.  Fear is the goal, and by sinking to their level, they achieve it.  America is a young and naive country where attacks on our soil are concerned....we have been very fortunate in the relatively few horrors that have occurred on our turf...which is why our reactions are so extreme. We have enjoyed a relatively peaceful existence in the homeland, where conflicts with other nations is concerned.

I believe Obama's gesture in releasing the memos is to begin the healing...because like I've already said, the result of the torture isn't the point...it's the FACT of it.  And without acknowledging the errors in judgment by the previous administration, airing them out and admitting their wrong, we can't move on as a country.   We as a people were horrified to see photos of abuse at Abu Ghraib, and hear of the endless acts of arrogant, wanton decision making in the past several years.  The wound has to be opened & aired out to heal & move on.  I also believe it was done to repair relationships in the world...perhaps not with our enemies, but with allies and those who might be....taking the "high road" so to speak.  However, I'm not naive enough to believe Obama (or any politician) is doing this solely for the humanitarian aspects of it. 

The end just doesn't justify the means.

now off I go to enjoy the weekend...and I hope you & yours do as well