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meower

meower Avatar

Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:45pm

dionysius wrote:

It's also rather off-topic, innit? We're arguing about abortion rights. Basic human, civil and economic rights are different, right? :wink.

(*Sarcasm*—they are part and parcel of the same suite of rights we should be guaranteeing for all women everywhere.)

exactly. at this point i do think it has to do with classism / take care of me and mine and not feel responsible to the other as opposed to racism. When there is racism/sexism/ anti-semitism it needs to be dealt with, but the problems facing women and people today in this part of the world anyway have mainly to do with people only caring about themselves and imediate family. MHO

dionysius

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Location: The People's Republic of Austin
Gender: Male

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:39pm

meower wrote:

Can we slow down with the "black folks" talk here? While I agree that there are lots of African Americans living in poverty, it's a bit offensive to refer a group of people as though they dont have opportunities when we have an African American in the white house at this point.
Seriously.

It's also rather off-topic, innit? We're arguing about abortion rights. Basic human, civil and economic rights are different, right?

(*Sarcasm*—they are part and parcel of the same suite of rights we should be guaranteeing for all women everywhere.)

meower

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Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:35pm
Can we slow down with the "black folks" talk here? While I agree that there are lots of African Americans living in poverty, it's a bit offensive to refer a group of people as though they dont have opportunities when we have an African American in the white house at this point. Seriously.

kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:34pm

islander wrote:

So do we say the same for the museum guard who was gunned down yesterday? Shall we just tell his family "move on, he knew being a guard was dangerous, and especially so because we all know there are people who deny the holocaust".

Shall we carry this on to other conclusions? Ever had anything stolen? Ever know a victim of violence? Ever know anyone who was raped? I encourage you to share your 'move on' approach with them so that they can get on with their lives and stop engaging in anything that would put them at risk of anything legal or not.< / Snark >

I can say yes to all your questions. And have had to move on. Forgiveness has something to do with that as well as removing the cancer of bitterness. I have been robbed at gun point, have you ?

Waking up and getting out of bed has its risks. Yes, the museum guard knowingly ran the risk of being killed when he went to work. Why did he have a gun ? Even Barney Fife had that risk. You're argument is akin to those that enlisted in the military before Desert Storm and protested having to fight when war broke out. "I wouldn't have enlisted if I knew I might have to fight". Ya, right.

I am not belittling the value of life. You just cannot control crazy. Nor can you stop it; its the proverbial irresistable force. Doesn't make it right. Just makes it wrong and crazy.

EDIT: And Pro Choice doesn't necessarily mean one is pro abortion, it can also mean that its nobody's business but the Doctor's and Patient's. And that is nobody else's business.

hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:32pm

oldviolin wrote:

D, I'm sorry, but you are just being naive here.. IMHO, black folk don't need government handouts and legislative agendas. They need self respect, self reliance, and familial continuity. They need ethics and responsible community awareness. They need to step up to the plate and take a swing. You want to keep them needy it seems. I'm sure that you love people of color every bit as much as I do, but you seem to pity them, while I admire them, and want them to succeed on their own merits so that their self respect is not dependent on what the government is going to give them because the man wants to keep them down...

How would you plan to do this?

oldviolin

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Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:29pm

hippiechick wrote:

That's not true. I would be happy to have your answers. But if you look at my solution, it pretty much covers the gamut of returning self respect to others, and helping them meet their needs.

If you are empowered, you will take responsibility for yourself.
If you are educated, you will have the knowledge required to take responsibility for yourself.
If you are employed, you will be able to meet the financial needs of yourself and your family, and you will feel empowered.

D, I'm sorry, but you are just being naive here.. IMHO, black folk don't need government handouts and legislative agendas. They need self respect, self reliance, and familial continuity. They need ethics and responsible community awareness and leadership. They need to step up to the plate and take a swing. You want to keep them needy it seems. I'm sure that you love people of color every bit as much as I do, but you seem to pity them, while I admire them, and want them to succeed on their own merits so that their self respect is not dependent on what the government is going to give them because the man wants to keep them down...

hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:26pm
arsenault wrote: my administration would take care of all that... good!

arsenault

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Location: long beach cali USandA
Gender: Male

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:25pm

hippiechick wrote:

Why don't you look up the high school graduation rates in cities like Baltimore, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, LA? Look at the unemployment rates. Look at the prison populations. Look at the laws that have been made and the wonderful justice system that can lock you away for a very long time if you can't afford a lawyer to defend yourself.

my administration would take care of all that... {#Crown}

hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:22pm

oldviolin wrote:

You already seem to have your answers. I doubt you want mine. I'm sure the legislative process will make it all right eventually...
Of course, it might take a change of hearts minds and attitudes. Where might we find such a potion?

hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:19pm

arsenault wrote:

can we really do this?

wow... i wish i was in charge of allocating the poverty and the locking up..
we would have a lovely utopian society. i would cruise the streets like a maharajah distributing and withdrawing my largesse from powerless citizens. 'lock him up!'.... 'make her poor!'.... 'release him from poverty.!'

but it wouldn't be based on race or creed. it would just depend on my mood.

has obama taken over the administration of this program? {#Stupid}

oldviolin

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Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:17pm

hippiechick wrote:

I am not labeling and categorizing. These are facts. Look it up if you don't believe that most women are below poverty level, and black. And we gain self-respect through empowerment, education, and employment. These are the things that help us to meet our needs. I don't understand what you are disagreeing with.

You already seem to have your answers. I doubt you want mine. I'm sure the legislative process will make it all right eventually...
Of course, it might take a change of hearts, minds and attitudes. Where might we find such a potion?

meower

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Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:16pm

MrsHobieJoe wrote:

Dr. Tiller's Important Job

The 9-year-old girl had been raped by her father. She was 18 weeks pregnant. Carrying the baby to term, going through labor and delivery, would have ripped her small body apart. There was no doctor in her rural Southern town to provide her with an abortion. No area hospital would even consider taking her case.

Susan Hill, the president of the National Women's Health Foundation, which operates reproductive health clinics in areas where abortion services are scarce or nonexisistent, called Dr. George Tiller, the Wichita, Kan., ob-gyn who last Sunday was shot to death by an abortion foe in the entry foyer of his church. MORE FROM THE NY TIMES- it's an opinion piece

I think that my question for Music Knut would be- what is your solution? Ban all abortion?- people will travel- to Mexico, Canada, Europe, others will die on back room abortion tables, more kids will be harmed by parents who didn't want them in the first place or will be born in to families with addictions/serious problems.

Are you for contraception, for education on sexual health and reproduction, are you for adoption and a comprehensive social service, I'd be interested to hear what your proposals are. Do you have exceptions for babies that will be born to have very serious health problems requiring constant nursing or a very short and painful life span? Would you be willing to commit the state to covering all the costs of birth and care? How would you "round out" the legislation to make a comprehensive solution?

.
.

I'm with Islander on the comparison with the museum guard btw.

Once again MsHJ I'm with you.
thanx for this. The man did very very important work, certainly when it came to late term abortions he saved many women from certain death.

arsenault

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Location: long beach cali USandA
Gender: Male

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:14pm

hippiechick wrote:

Off the top of my head I could name several, such as keeping black people living in poverty and then sending them to prison in order to perpetuate the condition.

hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:12pm

oldviolin wrote:

I respectfully disagree, mostly because once again you seem to want to lable and catagorize...nonsense.
The key is self respect in all cases. Who can treat another human being badly and still have self respect?

oldviolin

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Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:08pm

hippiechick wrote:

See, the thing is, here, instead of imposing judgments on any of these people, we need to take a look at WHY people get abortions, become racists or killers, and try to find an answer for these reasons.

Abortion? Sex education, birth control and medical care will help stop abortions. Since most of these women are below poverty lines, they need support in medical care, knowledge, and support for their babies if they choose to have them. The Right Wing does not have an interest in doing this, cutting off welfare and medicaid.

When people have their needs met, these conversations wouldn't be necessary. The solution is always

Education
Employment
Empowerment

hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 1:02pm

black321

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Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 12:58pm
hippiechick wrote: I think you should give some thought to this statement and think about how many heinous, vicious, albeit legal, acts are perpetrated in our society. Off the top of my head I could name several, such as keeping black people living in poverty and then sending them to prison in order to perpetuate the condition. so i think we are in agreement then.

hippiechick

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Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 12:55pm

black321 wrote:

The fact that this guy murdered someone only brings the abortion issue to the front, which is what I'm getting as the central point of any argument here. Not the fact of whether or not murdering someone who you think is doing wrong (legally or not) is an acceptable act... which is what you seem to be implying MK is saying. But merging the two arguments, I don't think you should need a law to determine what constitutes as heinous, vicious, albeit legal, act.

I think you should give some thought to this statement and think about how many heinous, vicious, albeit legal, acts are perpetrated in our society.

Off the top of my head I could name several, such as keeping black people living in poverty and then sending them to prison in order to perpetuate the condition.

sirdroseph

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Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 12:53pm

islander wrote:

So do we say the same for the museum guard who was gunned down yesterday? Shall we just tell his family "move on, he knew being a guard was dangerous, and especially so because we all know there are people who deny the holocaust".

Shall we carry this on to other conclusions? Ever had anything stolen? Ever know a victim of violence? Ever know anyone who was raped? I encourage you to share your 'move on' approach with them so that they can get on with their lives and stop engaging in anything that would put them at risk of anything legal or not.< / Snark >

Yea, what he said! {#Yes}

black321

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Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male

Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 12:51pm

islander wrote:

There is a big difference in the acts that he equated though. The doctor was acting within the bounds of the laws that govern our society. The person who attacked him (interestingly, I can't find his name in the first several news stories), was acting outside of our laws and taking a vigilante approach to those who he had disagreements with. You might see those as the same, but I do not. And I believe that the second has a far worse impact on our society than the first. And peoples unwillingness to stand up and say that it was a heinous, vicious, illegal act are empowering the attitude that allows such acts of blatant disregard for the rules which hold our society together.

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