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musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 9:03am

 hippiechick wrote:


This is my last post about this. I am certainly not going to change your mind, and I like to have the last word.  {#Wink}

If the "pro life" people were truly so, they wouldn't provide support for war, guns, and the death penalty. And since they do not support other means of pregnancy prevention, such as supporting Planned Parenthood, "anti-choice" is a much more fitting term.

Conversely, "pro abortion" isn't necessarily a descriptive term, since the pro choice people may not be supportive of abortion, but support a woman's right to chose whether or not she wants to have a child, abortion being just one of those choices.

The US gov under Bush would not even provide support to women in 3rd world countries for birth control. This is not pro life. OUr gov does not provide support for impoverished women who have babies, wanted or not. This is not pro life. Our gov would not support the morning after pill which would cut down the number of abortions performed in this country. Our gov under Bush refused to teach children how to prevent pregnancy, except through the ridiculous idea of abstinence. This is not pro life.

And who are you to judge the conditions under which women choose to have an abortion? Incest yes, poverty no?

The fact is that women have been aborting themselves since they figured out how. Denying them this support will not stop abortion, it will just promote more death. And until you are willing to support these women to have babies, provide them and the mother with health care, housing, education, emotional support, etc. then you are not pro life, you are anti-choice.

 

hc,
LOL...I learned long ago, if not from my wife and two daughters, that women always have the last word. I accept that. LOL
Buttttttttttt, and it's a big but, how many pro-choice members in Congress continue to vote the monies necessary for ops in Iraq and Afghanistan? Are they being hypocrites? Are they untrue to their pro-choice feelings? How much are they engaged in stopping the atrocities in say, Darfur?
I don't believe this Government of The People, has an obligation to meet the financial needs of women in foreign lands on the issue of abortion.
Again, you use social standing and circumstances as acceptable conditions for the abortion of human beings. Sorry, but I can not accept that. As I stated, it is more a failing of your side of the aisle on this matter to seek some common ground. I am not an advocate of outlawing all abortions as I have clearly expressed those exceptions I can accept, exceptions that I find to be within humane parameters. You continue to perhaps unwittingly, make the argument for abortion on demand. Is that what Roe was about? It appears to be what Roe evolved into.

Again, you are wrong and in an irritating manner: I am PRO-LIFE. It would seem that wording is bothersome to you. PRO-LIFE: a meaning and feeling I am comfortable with. It should not lead to snide remarks like anti-choice. I could say, unfairly, that you are anti-life. I don't believe that for a moment to be the case so please allow any conversation to be free of insults like anti-choice in lieu of PRO-LIFE.

Thanks,

And, you may have the last word...{#Yes}
mk


winter

winter Avatar

Location: in exile, as always
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 9:02am

 islander wrote:


Massive threadjack in RPland, RPeeps taking evasive action

 


That cracks me up. It's a viewscreen, not a window! They look like those people who watched the first movies and screamed because they thought the train was really coming at them. 

islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 9:00am

 SantaFeGrace wrote:
So....is there any BREAKING news?  {#Ask}

 

Massive threadjack in RPland, RPeeps taking evasive action



winter

winter Avatar

Location: in exile, as always
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 8:59am

 Alafia wrote: 
Wow. What are the odds?

There's a story for show-and-tell!
Alafia

Alafia Avatar

Location: the dojo
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 8:57am

 
 
German Boy Hit By Meteorite
 
 
SantaFeGrace

SantaFeGrace Avatar

Location: Santa Fe, NM
Gender: Female


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 8:47am

So....is there any BREAKING news?  {#Ask}
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 8:47am

 winter wrote:

I haven't seen numbers supporting this assertion. I'm curious where you came by them. 

 

The Consequences of Roe v. Wade
49,551,703
Total Abortions since 1973

Downward Trend Continues

After reaching a high of over 1.6 million in 1990, the number of abortions annually performed in the U.S. has dropped back to levels not seen since the late 1970s.

Two independent sources confirm this decline: the government's Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and the Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI), Planned Parenthood's special research affiliate monitoring trends in the abortion industry.

The CDC ordinarily develops its annual report on the basis of data received from 52 central health agencies (50 states plus New York City and the District of Columbia). AGI gets its numbers from direct surveys of abortionists.

Because of these different methods of data collection, AGI has consistently obtained higher counts than the CDC. CDC researchers have admitted it probably undercounts the total number of abortions because reporting laws vary from state to state and some abortionists probably do not report or under-report the abortions they perform. Nevertheless, because increases and decreases in CDC and AGI numbers have until recently roughly tracked each other, both sources are thought to provide useful information on abortion trends and statistics. The CDC stopped reporting estimates for some states in 1998, making the discrepancy larger.

Abortions from AK, CA, NH, and OK were not counted in 1998-99 CDC totals, and numbers for AK, CA, and NH were still missing from 2000-2002; CA NH and WV were excluded from 2003 and 2004. For those areas that did report, additional declines were seen between 1998 and 2001, and in 2003-2004. The CDC reported a slight increase in 2002, in contrast with the AGI numbers showing a slight decrease.

AGI's latest survey confirms a continued downward trend, showing just over 1.2 million abortions for 2005, a drop of 8% from its last full comprehensive survey in 2000. This is the lowest number reported by Guttmacher since 1976.

Using AGI figures through 20053, estimating 1,206,200 abortions for 2006 and 2007, and factoring in the possible 3% undercount AGI estimates for its own figures, the total number of abortions performed in the U.S. since 1973 equals 49,551,703.

http://www.nrlc.org/ABORTION/facts/abortionstats.html

~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't come to this forum, or any forum for that matter, with wholesale make believe numbers. I've been challenged before and I accept those challenges. I'm sure some will quarrel with CDC numbers. They just refuse to believe the human carnage taking place out of sight and they put it, out of mind. There are many other sources. Shall I list them, too? Or would you better satisfy yourself with some self-education on the matter?


islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 8:42am

 musik_knut wrote:


islander,
Fair. Dr. Tiller acted within the laws of this nation. Dr. Tiller did not deserve to die in the manner he did. Fair? I was more than pleased when Eric Rudolph was finally taken into custody. I don't believe you support life and promote life, by taking the lives of those with whom you disagree. The killer of Dr. Tiller and the actions of Rudolph and those like him, are acts of domestic terrorism.
mk

 

Thanks. This is a big point. We need to respect those that have differing opinions, and work within the system that we all agree upon for governance.  If we can't do that, it's a hop/skip/jump to anarchy and civil war. And as much as I disagree with those who disagree with me, I welcome their presence in our shared great land and recognize that it is the presence of both of us and our differing opinions that makes it such a great place.
 musik_knut wrote:

Oh, how I look to others and you? In this forum? Like I'm from Mars...and do I care? HELL NO! lmao...I know I'm probably seen more often than not as the proverbial skunk at a picnic...in this case, a Conservative at a Liberal's cliquish gathering. Fair? I think so.

mk
 

Is it time to go around on this one again?  Yes RP has a liberal slant. Fox News and Free Republic have conservative slants. There is a whole continuum of opinions and approaches on both sides. I myself like guns, support the death penalty and would bring ~75% of our troops around the globe home to serve and protect our borders and assets. I believe in the smallest government possible with the least intrusion on personal freedoms. I consider myself much more of a libertarian (oddly w/o the crazed support of the right to bear arms), which while sharing the first 5 letters of 'liberal', has much more to do with liberty. RP is a fun place w/ cool people (almost all of them who aren't DD'd) of all persuasions. They value a good debate and an open discourse. Just because a bunch of them line up against you doesn't mean it's a vast left wing conspiracy.

hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 8:35am

 musik_knut wrote:


hc,
Let me speak bluntly on the point of war: I've been in one...in a stink hole 10,000 miles away...a hole called Nam. Don't seek to be on a level of that understanding unless you too, saw combat, feared for your very existence, saw buddies depart this world and watched civilians, as is always the case in any armed conflict, absorb the Lion's share of death and misery. And, I believe entering Iraq was a mistake, a mistake that should have been avoided. I'll refer to my opening statement on death and destruction and let that again, speak for me.
I know where I've been and I know that since Roe, 49 MILLION others, mostly destroyed for the sake of convenience, not the mother's health or the cause of the resulting pregnancy, are not among us. You offer the same tired and  maddening reasoning and never touch on the real reasons: abortion as a tool often used as after-the-fact birth control. You can not support the endless nonsense that streams from pro-choice folks on the real reasons behind birth control. If you don't wish to bear a child, don't. And don't starts by avoiding impregnation. That does not require a Sisyphean effort.
I condemned the killing of Dr. Tiller. I don't know how often I must state that. And, I won't, again. I condemned the killing of the Officer at The Holocaust Museum. I detest the maddness of pure hate that drove Mr. Brunn to his actions. I detest that with every fiber of my being. And I detest abortion for the sake of convenience with those same fibers.
I detest war and killings. If there are hypocrites among us, it is those Liberals who wring their worry beads about death and destruction in The Middle East and don't flinch at the deaths of 49 MILLION human embryos, many of which passed the viable stage before being denied due process: they were judged as not wanted and then executed. I will repeat: I have no problem with abortions in the case of the mother's health or the cause of the pregnancy, meaning rape or incest. But unlike you, I can't support abortions owing to social factors and stratus. Sorry, but from my point of view, you're without conscience on the matter of aborting human beings. Please tell me I'm wrong...
mk

 

This is my last post about this. I am certainly not going to change your mind, and I like to have the last word.  {#Wink}

If the "pro life" people were truly so, they wouldn't provide support for war, guns, and the death penalty. And since they do not support other means of pregnancy prevention, such as supporting Planned Parenthood, "anti-choice" is a much more fitting term.

Conversely, "pro abortion" isn't necessarily a descriptive term, since the pro choice people may not be supportive of abortion, but support a woman's right to chose whether or not she wants to have a child, abortion being just one of those choices.

The US gov under Bush would not even provide support to women in 3rd world countries for birth control. This is not pro life. OUr gov does not provide support for impoverished women who have babies, wanted or not. This is not pro life. Our gov would not support the morning after pill which would cut down the number of abortions performed in this country. Our gov under Bush refused to teach children how to prevent pregnancy, except through the ridiculous idea of abstinence. This is not pro life.

And who are you to judge the conditions under which women choose to have an abortion? Incest yes, poverty no?

The fact is that women have been aborting themselves since they figured out how. Denying them this support will not stop abortion, it will just promote more death. And until you are willing to support these women to have babies, provide them and the mother with health care, housing, education, emotional support, etc. then you are not pro life, you are anti-choice.

(former member)

(former member) Avatar



Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 8:31am

It Stopped Raining!

Oh, never mid - it started again...
SantaFeGrace

SantaFeGrace Avatar

Location: Santa Fe, NM
Gender: Female


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 8:29am

 Atman wrote:
The number bandied about by so called 'pro-life' folks is completely pulled from the more productive parts of the Equine species (for an organic farmer). And it certainly doesn't take into account all the illegal abortions that took place every year before Roe v Wade (and still would if it were illegal). Or the abortions performed for rich women who just traveled elsewhere. Or the women who died as a result of botched abortions and their fear and shame. Break down anti-choice beliefs and it comes up Misogyny, pure and simple.

BTW, send all that data up here, I need the compost!

 

 
yep   {#Clap}
btw {#Lol}

Atman

Atman Avatar

Location: Sandpoint, ID
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 7:55am

The number bandied about by so called 'pro-life' folks is completely pulled from the more productive parts of the Equine species (for an organic farmer). And it certainly doesn't take into account all the illegal abortions that took place every year before Roe v Wade (and still would if it were illegal). Or the abortions performed for rich women who just traveled elsewhere. Or the women who died as a result of botched abortions and their fear and shame. Break down anti-choice beliefs and it comes up Misogyny, pure and simple.

BTW, send all that data up here, I need the compost!

 
winter

winter Avatar

Location: in exile, as always
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 7:30am

 ptooey wrote:
Point of order - this news is no longer breaking.
TYVM

YMMV

TTYL

TTFN
 
Good point.
ptooey

ptooey Avatar

Location: right behind you. no, over there.
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 7:23am

Point of order - this news is no longer breaking.
TYVM

YMMV

TTYL

TTFN
winter

winter Avatar

Location: in exile, as always
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 7:21am

 musik_knut wrote:


hc,
Let me speak bluntly on the point of war: I've been in one...in a stink hole 10,000 miles away...a hole called Nam. Don't seek to be on a level of that understanding unless you too, saw combat, feared for your very existence, saw buddies depart this world and watched civilians, as is always the case in any armed conflict, absorb the Lion's share of death and misery. And, I believe entering Iraq was a mistake, a mistake that should have been avoided. I'll refer to my opening statement on death and destruction and let that again, speak for me.
I know where I've been and I know that since Roe, 49 MILLION others, mostly destroyed for the sake of convenience, not the mother's health or the cause of the resulting pregnancy, are not among us. You offer the same tired and  maddening reasoning and never touch on the real reasons: abortion as a tool often used as after-the-fact birth control. You can not support the endless nonsense that streams from pro-choice folks on the real reasons behind birth control. If you don't wish to bear a child, don't. And don't starts by avoiding impregnation. That does not require a Sisyphean effort.
I condemned the killing of Dr. Tiller. I don't know how often I must state that. And, I won't, again. I condemned the killing of the Officer at The Holocaust Museum. I detest the maddness of pure hate that drove Mr. Brunn to his actions. I detest that with every fiber of my being. And I detest abortion for the sake of convenience with those same fibers.
I detest war and killings. If there are hypocrites among us, it is those Liberals who wring their worry beads about death and destruction in The Middle East and don't flinch at the deaths of 49 MILLION human embryos, many of which passed the viable stage before being denied due process: they were judged as not wanted and then executed. I will repeat: I have no problem with abortions in the case of the mother's health or the cause of the pregnancy, meaning rape or incest. But unlike you, I can't support abortions owing to social factors and stratus. Sorry, but from my point of view, you're without conscience on the matter of aborting human beings. Please tell me I'm wrong...
mk
 
I haven't seen numbers supporting this assertion. I'm curious where you came by them. 
Alafia

Alafia Avatar

Location: the dojo
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 7:12am

 oldviolin wrote:


One thing your opinions ain't is lame, Ray.

 
Well, on this particular subject, some will probably think so...


oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 7:11am

 Alafia wrote:
Isn't there an "Abortion Discussion" thread y'all could move this to?
I'll gladly chime in with my own lame ass opinions, just not here...
 

One thing your opinions ain't is lame, Ray.
Alafia

Alafia Avatar

Location: the dojo
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 7:08am

Isn't there an "Abortion Discussion" thread y'all could move this to?
I'll gladly chime in with my own lame ass opinions, just not here...

meower

meower Avatar

Location: i believe, i believe, it's silly, but I believe
Gender: Female


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 6:45am

 musik_knut wrote:


islander,
Fair. Dr. Tiller acted within the laws of this nation. Dr. Tiller did not deserve to die in the manner he did. Fair? I was more than pleased when Eric Rudolph was finally taken into custody. I don't believe you support life and promote life, by taking the lives of those with whom you disagree. The killer of Dr. Tiller and the actions of Rudolph and those like him, are acts of domestic terrorism.
Oh, how I look to others and you? In this forum? Like I'm from Mars...and do I care? HELL NO! lmao...I know I'm probably seen more often than not as the proverbial skunk at a picnic...in this case, a Conservative at a Liberal's cliquish gathering. Fair? I think so.

mk

 
I dont think you're from Mars.  You're not advocating violence, we may disagree on choice/abortion, but I think you're OK....

musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 6:31am

 islander wrote:


music_knutwrote:

If you read up on Dr. Tiller, he was damn determined to execute a child late in development. That is RADICAL, too. Perhaps not to you and others, but to many, yes, that is a radical use of abortion. Dr. Tiller killed more human beings than his killer did. His killer was wrong. And so was Dr. Tiller. One of two doctors in the US willing to perform the ghastly procedure required to end a life late in its development.

I'm open to being wrong here, but this reads to me like it was a tit for tat kind of thing. His statement of "killed more human beings than his killer did" makes it look like he thinks it is justified. He does say it was wrong, then immediately qualifies it with "so was Dr. Tiller".  Nowhere has he acknowledged that Tiller was acting within the bounds of the law. That point to me is a huge difference between some one performing an unfortunate medical procedure that no one really wants to see but our larger society has recognized as occasionally necessary, and some one hunting down and killing (in a freaking church no less) some one who they have a fundamental disagreement with.

Edit: I'd love to see MK clarify his points here. But as it stands it looks to me and a lot of others like he believes that murdering people who perform abortions is wrong, but an acceptable alternative to them continuing to perform abortions.
 

islander,
Fair. Dr. Tiller acted within the laws of this nation. Dr. Tiller did not deserve to die in the manner he did. Fair? I was more than pleased when Eric Rudolph was finally taken into custody. I don't believe you support life and promote life, by taking the lives of those with whom you disagree. The killer of Dr. Tiller and the actions of Rudolph and those like him, are acts of domestic terrorism.
Oh, how I look to others and you? In this forum? Like I'm from Mars...and do I care? HELL NO! lmao...I know I'm probably seen more often than not as the proverbial skunk at a picnic...in this case, a Conservative at a Liberal's cliquish gathering. Fair? I think so.

mk


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