I don't know if this matters or not, but ...

all of the things done by Trump were as a private citizen.  The things Biden has done that we are discussing were all done as either Vice President or Senator ...   Does not a higher standard of conduct apply to a federally elected office holder (while in office) than a private citizen ?  As touchy / feely as Trump was as a private citizen, he has in no way conducted himself improperly as POTUS.  There is a reason Biden is called Uncle Joe ...

 sirdroseph wrote:
 
I think by calling it groping you've already put a box around it. I've been groped more times than I can remember, and I can say from personal experience that there is a big difference between being groped and having body boundaries disrespected (at least in my experience - again, it's personal - someone who's been abused might have a harder time discriminating). I wouldn't want my kids to be intruded upon like that, but I also don't see it as sexual. I wouldn't want them to even hear trump's voice, let alone be in his physical presence - he is toxic all around, but I don't like your premise - it assumes that the motive, intention and consciousness of any person's behavior and their relationship to the other person is interchangeable. My contention is that each relationship is unique, and I could be perfectly comfortable with one guy putting his hands on my shoulder and 100% uncomfortable just being in the same room with another - it's up to me to let you know how I feel, not for me to decide how it is for someone else - I see that as disempowering. I think you're also making Biden's behavior more conscious than it probably is... you've made all sorts of judgments that I just can't agree with you are ours to make. 

Just think about it culturally - there are cultures where people touch each other constantly, and others that don't. Just thinking of the families I know, some are like puppy piles and others show little to no affection. All that plays out in our unconsciousness in terms of what we can tolerate or enjoy. 

Your last line actually saddens me. While I would like him to learn to respect boundaries, I don't want him feeling constrained from being himself, if what most people experience from him is warmth and affection. And that's what I'm getting at - are we going to rope men in so far that they can't be comfortable in their own skin? Do they have to suffer the same pain women have in order to put things right?  I think there are more conscious ways of moving in that direction. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/in...

https://greatergood.berkeley.e...

https://frontier.ac.uk/blog/20...

 oldviolin wrote:
  

 
I just mean that if we agree Biden's not going to make it to the elimination round, we shouldn't talk about him. We need to get more information about the other candidates, not gossip about crazy Uncle Joe.

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
 
Scott I can assure that I wasn't laughing at your insinuation. You are a vested member of the struggle. 
I'm not sure I missed your point at all . You and I want to replace Trump and we don't care if they're somewhat flawed because we know they all will be so the thing is not to find a perfect human being or politician but the perfect candidate with the character to derail the colostomy express. It could be Biden. I don't know. I hope not. I can't see it.  I hope it won't be a circus. I'm sure everyone wants a best case scenario. Maybe we can learn the lesson of Trump. Now I've used his name as a cautionary tale. That's the trick  you know, to resolve our way to harmony

or maybe I did miss your point. I do feel a bit dense lately.

so many memes, so little time

now I'm channeling miamizsun

hey everybody needs to look up to somebody, right?

where is this going?

I'm sorry if I offended. 

 oldviolin wrote:
 
Sort of missing the point. But by all means, we should keep talking about the candidates we don't care about.

 RabbitEars wrote: 
I guess a good litmus test is that if you had a daughter and he was groping her like that to the point to where she was visibly uncomfortable, how would you see it?  Or would you behave that way yourself?   Biden is smart, imo I see someone getting away with as most feels as he can without it being definitely defined as groping.  I really don't see how anyone could see any different.  Perhaps it would help if you imagined Trump behaving the exact same way (not the actual feeling up of grown women by grabbing their private parts, there is no misconstruing that and there is nothing to discuss) perhaps you would see it for what it really is or not.  It does bother me that he could get away with that all of these years, just goes to show that although metoo has some possible side effects, it obviously needed to happen.   Bet Biden will be more careful this time around if he does run and stay in the public eye. 

 sirdroseph wrote:
 
See who miss what? Not following that.... I usually believe women as well, as it takes a lot to step up and say something. But if we make it too easy to destroy people by an accusation, it will become more difficult to believe. Women are not immune from misusing power. 

FYI I did just watch a compilation called "Joe Being Creepy" or something like that. In every shot except one, the scene made me smile - I felt warmth. I did not see anything that by any stretch of imagination could be called "feeling up." But my feelings aren't what count - what I'm getting at is that interactions are personal. We all have our own body boundaries and what might be comfortable for one person might not be for another. We all have unique relationships, and unless we know what each person in each exchange is feeling, all we're doing is making judgments from our personal perspective, which generally contain a good deal of projection. And the MeToo movement has garnered the flavor of revengeful take-down, typical of the crappy emotional contagions that twitter fosters.  I'll also note that there are no shots of Biden touching men, which he seems to do equally (think pics of him w/Obama). So he's an extremely affectionate guy - I actually like that about him. But I understand why many don't - it's personal. 

What I'd say about Joe is that he's the kind of guy likely to violate someone's body boundaries, but beyond that requires the person being touched to weigh in. However, the younger the person, the more we can say a boundary violation is inappropriate. The interaction that makes me uncomfortable is in the collage in this thread - the middle shot on the right with the young girl. He's probably someone that doesn't easily read when he's being too much, but shaming is not a good way of going about learning those skills. We can't function well when we feel shame, no matter who we are. 

What I hope emerges from MeToo is more awareness of how we violate boundaries all the time (especially with babies - my god, very few people respect babies' boundaries), and an increased openness to finding where we are comfortable with each other. 

And, personal opinion, if Joe doesn't run, good. I've got my bias - I'd rather vote for someone younger than 60. 

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
 

Lolololololol

Biden's a jackass. 
We all know it. That hasn't stopped anyone else from running yet...

I  don't think he's a perv though...

JMHO

Well, any way you look at it, we're talking about Joe Biden as opposed to learning about one of the less well known candidates. The 2020 election is going according to the script. I don't want to hear any whining when Trump wins a second term. 

 sirdroseph wrote:
 
I think you and I have different definitions of that term.  No matter.

General note:  Instead of thinking of the metoo movement as out of control, did you ever stop to think that maybe sexual assault and harassment on many different levels has ALWAYS been out of control and we are finally seeing these people outed?  Cause really that is what is happening.  I think that almost every single one of these men is guilty.

 Proclivities wrote: 
Yes there are, watch them or not doesn't matter to me.  He reserves most of the feeling up to little girls and teenagers but not exclusively.

 sirdroseph wrote:
 

I'm not looking to give him a pass, and that aspect of him often seemed creepy to me, but I doubt there are any videos of him "feeling up" a woman.  The term has a specific meaning (or at least used to).

 RabbitEars wrote:

 
I have rarely if ever seen them miss.  I am hardly politically correct, but in almost all of the public cases the men have been up to some shady stuff.  Like I have said before whether it is Kavanaugh, Biden or Trump I am almost always prone to believe the women for it is much rarer for them to be out and out lying over something like this. 

 Proclivities wrote: 
Go to youtube and watch all of the video compilations there are lots over the years; make your own decisions. You have always seemed to me to be an open minded person, I think you will have difficulty giving Uncle Joe a pass after seeing all of these instances.

Not one of those women look uncomfortable with what's happening.

I say this as a life-long liberal and feminist: libs have become the puritans they so often rail against. We've already turned our eyes away from each other (towards our screens), which neurobiologically speaking is mentally and physically unhealthy. If we make everyone afraid to touch each other we will further erode the best things about what make us human.

MeToo is going to end up a disaster if it doesn't change tactics - belittling, shaming and attacking people is usually the least effective way to get them to change their behavior. 

 sirdroseph wrote:
 
"Feeling up" has an entirely different meaning than just unwanted/unwelcome/creepy touching/groping of arms, shoulders, back, etc.  It's actually what our current president bragged about doing on the Access Hollywood tape.  Still, Biden seems a little too "handsy" sometimes.

 miamizsun wrote:

 

This has been an issue for awhile;  I addressed this in the unintentional irony thread.  There have been pictures and videos of him feeling up women and girls for years now.  I guess they are finally getting around to talking about this in the mainstream news.   He is done, he is welcome to continue to run and get operatives to make up things and say it is alright, but he is done.

is this a serious issue?

another silly meme?

or does he need a puppy?

Joe the Veep - Mr. October delivers.