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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Those Lovable Policemen Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, ... 53, 54, 55  Next
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Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 21, 2021 - 10:55pm

 westslope wrote:
OK.  Just had a really dumb question pop into my head.  Here it is:

Is it not possible to train police officers to shoot to immobilize without killing the suspect?

Sure, but you have to be prepared for the tactic to fail spectacularly.

In a defensive situation—where you're shooting someone who is trying to kill you or others—The goal is not to kill or wound but to stop. You usually have milliseconds to make the call. You shoot for the biggest, easiest target: the center of mass. If you try and aim for a smaller target it will take longer and fail more often. Your shots will head off into the background rather than the target and you're more likely to fail at the goal of stopping the fight.

If you think that's easy enough to do under life-and-death pressure I invite you to try it. Not for real, but against the clock. You're up in Canadia so that will require jumping thru an awful lot of hoops and may not be possible at all; it's straightforward enough here in the states.

There are popular forms of competitive shooting that attempt to duplicate the pressure, confusion, and pace of an actual gun fight. Obviously the stakes are a lot lower, but you'd be surprised how effective it can be at disrupting the shooter's composure and forcing errors.

And that's in a situation where you know what's about to happen and where you know a mistake isn't going to kill anyone. It can be pretty eye-opening.

Once you have that perspective think about a real-world situation, where your first mistake could be your last, or an innocent bystander's last, or your partner's, or a crime victim's. Where you never know if the guy you just pulled over is desperate/high/angry enough to kill people to avoid being arrested. Where most civilians will be offended by your not knowing that, and taking steps to protect yourself. Armchair SWAT officers can second-guess at their leisure and pontificate that you should just train more, but the decisions that get made usually happen with a huge amount of ambiguity, in poor light, in a big hurry, with lots of distractions. And those decisions get made by humans.

So the doctrine is kept as simple as possible: aim for the center of mass, shoot until the threat is gone. And I'm fine with that. And understanding that—and the inevitable connection between that threat of violence and the notion that there ought to be a law—makes me want to put people in that situation as seldom as possible, and only for very good reasons.


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 21, 2021 - 10:31pm

 westslope wrote:
OK.  Just had a really dumb question pop into my head.  Here it is:

Is it not possible to train police officers to shoot to immobilize without killing the suspect?

 
That is a very old question much older than the existence of such things like tasers.  The answer is the same now as it was then, No.

It is why we now have things like tasers.  An alternative to guns.  Sometimes even guns are not enough to stop someone in time.

Simply put, the use of a gun is the use of a deadly force.  To be used only in certain circumstances, such as here in Columbus, Ohio the other day, when it was used to save the victim from immediate and real harm.  Hesitate and two people might be dead instead of one.

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Apr 21, 2021 - 5:03pm

OK.  Just had a really dumb question pop into my head.  Here it is:

Is it not possible to train police officers to shoot to immobilize without killing the suspect?

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Apr 21, 2021 - 4:54pm

 sirdroseph wrote:


More police die by suicide than by other causes?   I did not know that.
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Apr 21, 2021 - 4:17pm

Grim list of deaths at police hands grows even after verdict
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 20, 2021 - 8:59am

R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Apr 19, 2021 - 9:44am

Few Charges, Fewer Convictions: The Chauvin Trial and the History of Police Violence
A review of 19 deaths of Black Americans involving police officers shows that, despite public outrage, guilty verdicts are rare.
cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 13, 2021 - 7:37am

 kcar wrote:

Never mind that the Taser is a bright banana yellow...

I don't know what magic BillG used to turn bold back on but it sure shows up now. 

Yeah, I saw the footage, and I don't know where to start...

The location and timing was perfect though, I'll give her that much. Ugh.
c.
edit: The officer is a 26-year veteran. 

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Apr 12, 2021 - 4:21pm

 R_P wrote:

Oops, wrong gun. Sorry.


Never mind that the Taser is a bright banana yellow...

I don't know what magic BillG used to turn bold back on but it sure shows up now. 
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Apr 12, 2021 - 4:06pm

Oops, wrong gun. Sorry.
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Apr 11, 2021 - 2:54pm

Fresno police fires officer for alleged involvement with Proud Boys
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 7, 2021 - 6:19am

here is an example of how quickly things can go bad (nothing visually graphic but you get the idea)

woman calls for help dealing with an abusive man...


miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 7, 2021 - 6:14am



 haresfur wrote:


 miamizsun wrote:
role reversal of sorts...

 
Ok, I haven't watched this because time, but I have done quite a few role-playing training exercises for various things and there is tremendous potential for abuse in setting up situations to have predetermined outcomes that just reinforce the biases of the trainers rather than actually training people for reasonably realistic situations. It is hard to balance low-probability/high risk events with high-probability/low risk events, but the result is often to elevate the significance of the low probability events, particularly in the case of police where there is very low probability of consequences for blowing citizens away because you thought there was a slight possibility of them trying to harm you.

 
you should watch it

and is there a legit argument for  guided policing/law enforcement?  something that may have better outcomes? 

absolutely, especially when there is a chance for the initiation of a strategy (serving a warrant for example)


haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 6, 2021 - 4:29pm



 miamizsun wrote:
role reversal of sorts...

 
Ok, I haven't watched this because time, but I have done quite a few role-playing training exercises for various things and there is tremendous potential for abuse in setting up situations to have predetermined outcomes that just reinforce the biases of the trainers rather than actually training people for reasonably realistic situations. It is hard to balance low-probability/high risk events with high-probability/low risk events, but the result is often to elevate the significance of the low probability events, particularly in the case of police where there is very low probability of consequences for blowing citizens away because you thought there was a slight possibility of them trying to harm you.

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 6, 2021 - 11:39am

role reversal of sorts...

haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2021 - 12:55am



 cc_rider wrote:
 
Heaven forbid you should walk in the street where at least the snow is packed down

cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 23, 2021 - 1:13pm

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/u...

c.
cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 3, 2021 - 7:45am



 miamizsun wrote:
unfortunately a couple of fbi agents were killed here yesterday

just thinking about the process of capturing a human being

safety, resistance, leverage, difficulty, strategy, etc.

could it be safer and easier to arrest someone once outside their nest/burrow/home turf?

is there a  way to minimize risk for all involved? 

might produce a better outcome or the odds of a better outcome
 
Sure, but it's not as much FUN. Where else are they gonna use all those fancy military-grade toys?

Local (former) Sheriff escalated situations for ratings. Which led to at least one death. See: 'Live PD Williamson County'. 

FYI, Wil-co recently elected the first Dem Sheriff in something like 20 years. Whats-his-name is still costing them a fortune, in $$$ and reputation.
c.

sunybuny

sunybuny Avatar

Location: The West & Best Coast of FLA
Gender: Female


Posted: Feb 3, 2021 - 5:25am



 miamizsun wrote:
unfortunately a couple of fbi agents were killed here yesterday

just thinking about the process of capturing a human being

safety, resistance, leverage, difficulty, strategy, etc.

could it be safer and easier to arrest someone once outside their nest/burrow/home turf?

is there a  way to minimize risk for all involved? 

might produce a better outcome or the odds of a better outcome
 
Saw that big time over here. Praying for everyone.

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 3, 2021 - 5:08am

unfortunately a couple of fbi agents were killed here yesterday

just thinking about the process of capturing a human being

safety, resistance, leverage, difficulty, strategy, etc.

could it be safer and easier to arrest someone once outside their nest/burrow/home turf?

is there a  way to minimize risk for all involved? 

might produce a better outcome or the odds of a better outcome
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