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Trump
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RightWingNutZ
- kurtster - May 2, 2024 - 10:37pm
Who Killed The Electric Car??? -- The Movie
- KurtfromLaQuinta - May 2, 2024 - 9:51pm
Wordle - daily game
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Name My Band
- Manbird - May 2, 2024 - 7:37pm
If not RP, what are you listening to right now?
- oldviolin - May 2, 2024 - 5:56pm
The Dragons' Roost
- oldviolin - May 2, 2024 - 5:46pm
Joe Biden
- R_P - May 2, 2024 - 5:07pm
May 2024 Photo Theme - Peaceful
- thisbody - May 2, 2024 - 4:58pm
Other Medical Stuff
- miamizsun - May 2, 2024 - 4:37pm
What Makes You Sad?
- thisbody - May 2, 2024 - 3:35pm
songs that ROCK!
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Breaking News
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What Makes You Laugh?
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Israel
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NYTimes Connections
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NY Times Strands
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Song of the Day
- oldviolin - May 2, 2024 - 9:27am
Dialing 1-800-Manbird
- oldviolin - May 2, 2024 - 9:17am
Questions.
- oldviolin - May 2, 2024 - 9:13am
What can you hear right now?
- ScottFromWyoming - May 2, 2024 - 8:39am
Radio Paradise Comments
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The Obituary Page
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Today in History
- DaveInSaoMiguel - May 2, 2024 - 4:00am
And the good news is....
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Bug Reports & Feature Requests
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Unquiet Minds - Mental Health Forum
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Things you would be grating food for
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Economix
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USA! USA! USA!
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I Heart Huckabee - NOT!
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Derplahoma!
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Democratic Party
- R_P - Apr 30, 2024 - 4:01pm
Oh, The Stupidity
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Canada
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What Did You See Today?
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Mixtape Culture Club
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Food
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Photography Forum - Your Own Photos
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New Music
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Upcoming concerts or shows you can't wait to see
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Tesla (motors, batteries, etc)
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Photos you haven't taken of yourself
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Britain
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Birthday wishes
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SCOTUS
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Would you drive this car for dating with ur girl?
- KurtfromLaQuinta - Apr 27, 2024 - 9:53pm
Classical Music
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LeftWingNutZ
- Lazy8 - Apr 27, 2024 - 12:46pm
Things You Thought Today
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The Moon
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April 2024 Photo Theme - Happenstance
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Musky Mythology
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Australia has Disappeared
- Red_Dragon - Apr 26, 2024 - 2:41pm
Radio Paradise sounding better recently
- firefly6 - Apr 26, 2024 - 10:39am
Neil Young
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Country Up The Bumpkin
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Environmental, Brilliance or Stupidity
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Poetry Forum
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Ask an Atheist
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Afghanistan
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Science in the News
- Red_Dragon - Apr 25, 2024 - 10:00am
What the hell OV?
- miamizsun - Apr 25, 2024 - 9:46am
The Abortion Wars
- Isabeau - Apr 25, 2024 - 9:27am
Vinyl Only Spin List
- ColdMiser - Apr 25, 2024 - 7:15am
What's that smell?
- Manbird - Apr 24, 2024 - 10:27pm
260,000 Posts in one thread?
- NoEnzLefttoSplit - Apr 24, 2024 - 10:55am
TV shows you watch
- Beaker - Apr 24, 2024 - 7:32am
China
- R_P - Apr 23, 2024 - 5:35pm
One Partying State - Wyoming News
- sunybuny - Apr 23, 2024 - 6:53am
YouTube: Music-Videos
- Red_Dragon - Apr 22, 2024 - 7:42pm
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Index »
Music »
Whatever »
Why not Anarchy?
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Page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 21, 22, 23 Next |
oldviolin
Location: esse quam videri Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 6:03pm |
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hippie wrote:Hell, If I run this country that shit will be outlawed and anyone caught making or distributing it will be shot on sight. Heck, I love cream corn. I was speaking Manbirdian. It's sort of like explaining the theory of relativity to Manbird.
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buzz
Location: up the boohai
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 5:51pm |
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hippie wrote: Hell, If I run this country that shit will be outlawed and anyone caught making or distributing it will be shot on sight.
outlaw tofu and you get my vote
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JrzyTmata
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 5:50pm |
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hippie
Location: In the studio Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 5:45pm |
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oldviolin wrote: just vote no for cream corn...
Hell, If I run this country that shit will be outlawed and anyone caught making or distributing it will be shot on sight.
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oldviolin
Location: esse quam videri Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 4:43pm |
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hippie wrote:A picture of my butt will go on the dollar bill, that why you can kiss it goodbye when you spend it. just vote no for cream corn...
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musik_knut
Location: Third Stone From The Sun Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 4:21pm |
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Umberdog wrote: P.S. I just Googled 'DRO' and now I think I know what you've been smoking. *chuckles* Just joking.
Well, water rights were cited...
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Umberdog
Location: In my body. Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 4:19pm |
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miamizsun wrote:In an anarchic organization these things are contractual and handled by DROs. In other words, if you buy property, in the contract are water rights, access rights, etc.
Regards P.S. I just Googled 'DRO' and now I think I know what you've been smoking. *chuckles* Just joking.
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musik_knut
Location: Third Stone From The Sun Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 4:02pm |
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Umberdog wrote: Without a governing authority, who oversees and authenticates these contracts? You are left to work it out yourself... and without a 'higher authority' you are left with preserving your (non-existent) rights through your own means... which means violent action if the other party reneges on the contract. It seems to me, under anarchy, we're back to old Chicago methods. Which would, indeed, return us to the natural process of survival of the fittest... or, at least, survival of the best weapon-smiths.
In the above comment, I wrote "non-existent rights," because the only rights any creature has without social government are those that one can defend through one's own fortitude. Without social government, rights seem to go right out the window.
One other thing... "anarchic organization" is an oxymoron.
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Umberdog
Location: In my body. Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 3:58pm |
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miamizsun wrote:Well at least you didn't ask the plane/parachute question. First in an anarchic society, there is no absence of rules, regs or laws. That's your hallucination. There is however an absence of government violence. I think the current common laws and statutes follow the riparian or appropriation methods, I see no need to change these. However, there are large corporatist water companies that have, with government help of course, allowed to set up in an area and basically suck it dry. Boone Pickens has greased a bunch of politicians and acquired a massive amount of water rights and right of ways. When the group of people you've given authority to are for sale, expect them to be bought and sold.
In an anarchic organization these things are contractual and handled by DROs. In other words, if you buy property, in the contract are water rights, access rights, etc.
Regards Without a governing authority, who oversees and authenticates these contracts? You are left to work it out yourself... and without a 'higher authority' you are left with preserving your (non-existent) rights through your own means... which means violent action if the other party reneges on the contract. It seems to me, under anarchy, we're back to old Chicago methods. Which would, indeed, return us to the natural process of survival of the fittest... or, at least, survival of the best weapon-smiths. In the above comment, I wrote "non-existent rights," because the only rights any creature has without social government are those that one can defend through one's own fortitude. Without social government, rights seem to go right out the window. One other thing... "anarchic organization" is an oxymoron.
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miamizsun
Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP) Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 3:43pm |
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aflanigan wrote:So if I'm a businessman (say a rancher) and my cattle need water and the person who controls the only source refuses to enter into a voluntary transaction with me for whatever reason, what do I do? Let my cattle die and my family starve? Why would powerful individuals or corporations refrain from coercion when it suits them well, and when anarchy (the absence of any law or authority) fails to bar such coercion?
Well at least you didn't ask the plane/parachute question. First in an anarchic society, there is no absence of rules, regs or laws. That's your hallucination. There is however an absence of government violence. I think the current common laws and statutes follow the riparian or appropriation methods, I see no need to change these. However, there are large corporatist water companies that have, with government help of course, allowed to set up in an area and basically suck it dry. Boone Pickens has greased a bunch of politicians and acquired a massive amount of water rights and right of ways. When the group of people you've given authority to are for sale, expect them to be bought and sold. In an anarchic organization these things are contractual and handled by DROs. In other words, if you buy property, in the contract are water rights, access rights, etc. Regards
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Umberdog
Location: In my body. Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 3:36pm |
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hippie wrote:A picture of my butt will go on the dollar bill, that why you can kiss it goodbye when you spend it. What a cool idea. Will it become a mushroom when you fold it just right?
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hippie
Location: In the studio Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 3:27pm |
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aflanigan wrote:OK, sounds good to me. Just one question regarding your qualifications: Are you good looking enough to appear on the dollar bill, or should we stick with George Washington? A picture of my butt will go on the dollar bill, that why you can kiss it goodbye when you spend it.
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aflanigan
Location: At Sea Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 1:32pm |
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kurtster wrote:In my own mind, I'll take that Liberty means that life is good and that you can go out and have a good time and come home and find everything where you left it. No one kicked in the door and took the stuff you worked hard for while you were out. The ability to use common sense and come and go as you please.
If you don't mind, honorable kurtster, allow me the liberty (if you'll pardon the pun) of using you as an example to look at the issue we're discussing. Absolute or unrestricted personal freedom/liberty means anyone can do anything they please. If we had no laws, no courts (judges, etc.), no authority of any kind (i.e. anarchy), that's what we would enjoy: The freedom to do anything we wanted, including steal kurtster's stuff. And that would be a shame, 'cause he's got some nice stuff (I'm particularly envious of the Tickle-Me-Elmo doll he's got). So in order to keep this from happening, we can't really have unrestricted liberty, can we? That's the paradox we run into: In order for kurtster and everyone else to be free from having their stuff stolen, we need to limit people's freedom. Our sense of morality, or of justice, informs us that it's not right or fair for something kurtster has worked and exerted effort to obtain to be stolen, to be "repossessed" by someone else. The concept of constrained liberty is summed up in Oliver Wendell Holmes' quip that "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins". John Stuart MIll was essentially driving at this same concept in his essay invoking the harm principle. To express the limits we must place on liberty/freedom in order to protect people and society from the harmful actions of individuals, groups, corporations, etc., we create laws. They can get rather complicated, but in terms of stealing, we might say "no one is allowed to steal under penalty of law". We then develop definitions and clarifications, and appropriate penalties. You can't be accused of stealing something no one possesses to begin with. How do you define possession? kurtster can show a paper signed by aflanigan stating that "on such and such a day I traded a Tickle-Me-Elmo doll to kurtster in exchange for a Frank Zappa record". Now, do we want the same person writing, interpreting, and enforcing these laws? The founding fathers of the US decided, no, that's not a good idea. It's a dangerous concentration of power to have the same person or authority assuming all of these duties. They had seen how monarchs had abused such a concentration of power to pass laws that favored them and enriched them, and to pass judgement on people who they did not like or felt threatened by in spite of what the laws might have been reasonably construed to say. So they formed our government in a way in which the roles of writing/enacting, interpreting, and enforcing laws were divided among different branches of government, to ward against a dangerous concentration of power. They also placed written limits (such as the Bill of rights) on the extent of authority/power that the government could exert over citizens. That's what our Constitution essentially does, right? —————————————————————- Anyway, the hypothetical involving kurtster and his TME doll is an example where we can see that miamizsuns' anarchist notion of "interacting with others without threatening them", of using "incentives" to persuade people who have "absolute liberty", is utterly unworkable. Let's imagine how kurtster can keep someone from stealing his Tickle-Me-Elmo doll without threatening them with violence or punishment or retaliation, but by offering them an incentive. kurtster: That's my Elmo doll, give it back, fellow anarchist! fellow anarchist: The heck with you, it's mine now. I can do what I want, I'm an anarchist! kurtster: As am I. Allow me to offer you an incentive to return my doll since I have no recourse to legal action, and since threatening you would disrupt the social order. fa: what are you offering me? kurtster: I have several things of value you may like. fa: The only thing I'm interested in is this Tickle-Me-Elmo doll. kurtster: Fine, if you will return my Elmo doll to me, I will give you what you want as an incentive in order to preserve the spirit of volunteerism that pervades our society. (fa returns the Elmo doll to kurtster, who then gives it back) fa: Enjoy the rest of your day, fellow anarchist! kurtster: Uh, wait a minute, this didn't turn out the way I'd hoped . . .
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cc_rider
Location: Bastrop Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 12:44pm |
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aflanigan wrote:OK, sounds good to me. Just one question regarding your qualifications: Are you good looking enough to appear on the dollar bill, or should we stick with George Washington? Nothing personal Hippie, but let's keep ol' George on the dollar. Don't wanna scare small children...
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aflanigan
Location: At Sea Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 12:43pm |
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hippie wrote:You all should let my happy ass run this damn country. All you need to know is I DON'T PUT UP WITH ANY SHIT FROM ANYBODY. OK, sounds good to me. Just one question regarding your qualifications: Are you good looking enough to appear on the dollar bill, or should we stick with George Washington?
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aflanigan
Location: At Sea Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 12:39pm |
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Lazy8 wrote: Just a suggestion: if you want to avoid having libertarians butting into conversations about liberty then don't post them in public. We tend to think of it as an important topic.
Er, I honestly tried to parse the first phrase of your second paragraph in a way that doesn't contradict the second phrase...and I failed. Whatevs.
My thesis remains this: don't cast libertarians as anarchists—whatever you think of anarchy as a political philosophy. When I catch you at it I'll call you on it. Fair?
Yes, I realize you're arguing with a couple of self-described libertarians who are also anarchists—that doesn't make libertarianism equivalent to anarchism any more than the existence of two male dogs makes maleness equivalent to being a dog.
Where, please, did I call you an anarchist, or even insinuate that you are one? I explicitly pointed out that libertarians acknowledge the need for limited government. What do you want from me, a signed affidavit? Libertarians (and libertarians) don't own exclusive rights to the word "liberty". If you think I'm using it incorrectly, fine, but don't assume that because my understanding of the word's various definitions doesn't align perfectly with the way you prefer to define it, I am therefor calling you an anarchist! You're welcome to join in these hearty, robust debates. The more the merrier!
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cc_rider
Location: Bastrop Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 11:06am |
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hippie wrote:Lazy wrote: My thesis remains this: don't cast libertarians as anarchists-whatever you think of anarchy as a political philosophy. When I catch you at it I'll call you on it. Fair? ___________________________________________________________________________________________ Allow me to make a simple statement of fact. If you pull that anarchy shit around me, like a few dumb asses have here in Portland, you will have a choice of, (a) going to sleep on the street...(b) visiting your local trauma unit and (c) not having the chance to multiply. ....there is a (d) part but it won't take effect for a few years but here it is for just in case you are young and pull this shit around 2014....You will get to find out if the new health care plan will cover what I do to you. In 2003 I had two so called anarchists jumped me on the street in downtown Portland. One went to the trauma unit and the other went to jail....after they got the bleeding stopped. You all should let my happy ass run this damn country. All you need to know is I DON'T PUT UP WITH ANY SHIT FROM ANYBODY. I'm going back to recording a new song.....have a nice day. I'm in.
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HazzeSwede
Location: Hammerdal Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 1:24am |
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Who's the Sh** head brilliant poster that make's me side scroll ?
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HazzeSwede
Location: Hammerdal Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 1:23am |
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Who's the Sh** head that make's me side scroll ?
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musik_knut
Location: Third Stone From The Sun Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 1, 2011 - 8:39pm |
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hippie wrote:Lazy wrote: My thesis remains this: don't cast libertarians as anarchists-whatever you think of anarchy as a political philosophy. When I catch you at it I'll call you on it. Fair? ___________________________________________________________________________________________ Allow me to make a simple statement of fact. If you pull that anarchy shit around me, like a few dumb asses have here in Portland, you will have a choice of, (a) going to sleep on the street...(b) visiting your local trauma unit and (c) not having the chance to multiply. ....there is a (d) part but it won't take effect for a few years but here it is for just in case you are young and pull this shit around 2014....You will get to find out if the new health care plan will cover what I do to you. In 2003 I had two so called anarchists jumped me on the street in downtown Portland. One went to the trauma unit and the other went to jail....after they got the bleeding stopped. You all should let my happy ass run this damn country. All you need to know is I DON'T PUT UP WITH ANY SHIT FROM ANYBODY. I'm going back to recording a new song.....have a nice day. Rock on my brother...
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