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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » illegal immigrants Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 101, 102, 103  Next
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kcar

kcar Avatar
Posted: May 13, 2019 - 9:52pm
 kurtster wrote:
 
Are you conflating objection to illegal immigration to mean just being anti immigration across the board as usual ?

.
 kcar wrote:
 
 
 
The skinny: an increase of illegal immigrants does not cause an increase in crime. Sorry, Kurt.
 
 
 
 An analysis derived from new data is now able to help address this question, suggesting that growth in illegal immigration does not lead to higher local crime rates.

In part because it’s hard to collect data on them, undocumented immigrants have been the subjects of few studies, including those related to crime. But the Pew Research Center recently released estimates of undocumented populations sorted by metro area, which The Marshall Project has compared with local crime rates published by the F.B.I. For the first time, there is an opportunity for a broader analysis of how unauthorized immigration might have affected crime rates since 2007.

 

 Murder was the only type of crime that appeared to show a rise, but again the difference was small and uncertain (effectively zero).


Yeah, what's another couple of 100 or so dead in a year's time in the big picture, right ?  They're just numbers, not people to you, eh ?

Look, the only point that I have been trying to make from day one is that crimes committed by illegal immigrants are preventable.  If they were not here, these crimes would not have been committed.  It's pretty simple.  It has nothing to do with crime rates, at all.  You and others keep ignoring that point.  Instead you simply talk about crime rates, not the crimes they commit.  You excuse the crimes they commit by saying that they are no more likely to commit crimes than any other people who are here legally.  So effing what.  

If they were not here, the crimes they commit would not happen.  Why is that so hard to accept and understand ?


 
 
 
"Are you conflating objection to illegal immigration to mean just being anti immigration across the board as usual ?"




No. There is a sizable group of Americans who don't like immigrants at all. And no, I was not trying to indirectly snark at you.



"Yeah, what's another couple of 100 or so dead in a year's time in the big picture, right ?  They're just numbers, not people to you, eh ?"

 
 
Hey, rockstar: the next time you quote an article, try capturing ALL of the relevant text—like this:



"Murder was the only type of crime that appeared to show a rise, but again the difference was small and uncertain (effectively zero)."



"Look, the only point that I have been trying to make from day one is that crimes committed by illegal immigrants are preventable.  If they were not here, these crimes would not have been committed.  It's pretty simple."




READ  the piece. Effectively it's saying that if you have a group of only native and immigrant Americans and another group of equal size consisting of native, legal- and illegal-immigrants, you're going to have similar or lower crime rates with the second group, esp. for violent crimes. From what I can tell, if you have a population of only native Americans (not Native Americans as in "Indians"), you will have higher crime rates than a population with immigrants.
 
You seem to think that if by majick you rid the US of illegal immigrants, crime rates will go down. That's not the case. A murder or rape is horrible no matter who does it. A crime committed by an illegal immigrant is no worse than one committed by a native or legal immigrant. In aggregate, you will have the same or more crimes including violent crimes even if you totally wipe out illegal immigration. Joe Smith might get murdered by an illegal Jose Jimenez and yes that's awful. But if Don Chapman, whose family has been in the US for 300 years, takes Jose's place in an area and kills Sally Whitechapel, that's just as awful.
 
You're not going to make the US safer or more peaceful by harshly cracking down on illegal immigration: you just make the people trying to get in more desperate and more willing to put themselves into the hands of people who will take advantage of them and commit crimes against them, like coyotes.
 
You could argue against illegal immigration by focusing on the risks and harms that illegal immigrants face, but that would likely take an intelligent and moral person in another direction—towards trying to help illegals and addressing the long-term causes for their attempts to enter the US. Something the GOP and Trump can't or won't think about.
 
I believe that citizens of a country have a right to determine their nation's immigration policy. I don't believe in open borders without question. I think that any prosperous and peaceful country is always going to have to grapple with illegal immigration. From what I can tell however, a harsh and greatly limiting immigration policy a la the Trump administration's is ineffective, inhuman and counter-productive.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male
Posted: May 13, 2019 - 8:42pm
 kcar wrote:

 
  I think anti-immigrants can't intuitively grasp that immigrants often build up the country from the bottom of the economic pile; they just see takers and thieves and strange people not willing to assimilate.


  
Are you conflating objection to illegal immigration to mean just being anti immigration across the board as usual ?

.
 kcar wrote:
 
 
 
The skinny: an increase of illegal immigrants does not cause an increase in crime. Sorry, Kurt.
 
 
 
 An analysis derived from new data is now able to help address this question, suggesting that growth in illegal immigration does not lead to higher local crime rates.

In part because it’s hard to collect data on them, undocumented immigrants have been the subjects of few studies, including those related to crime. But the Pew Research Center recently released estimates of undocumented populations sorted by metro area, which The Marshall Project has compared with local crime rates published by the F.B.I. For the first time, there is an opportunity for a broader analysis of how unauthorized immigration might have affected crime rates since 2007.

 

 Murder was the only type of crime that appeared to show a rise, but again the difference was small and uncertain (effectively zero).


Yeah, what's another couple of 100 or so dead in a year's time in the big picture, right ?  They're just numbers, not people to you, eh ?

Look, the only point that I have been trying to make from day one is that crimes committed by illegal immigrants are preventable.  If they were not here, these crimes would not have been committed.  It's pretty simple.  It has nothing to do with crime rates, at all.  You and others keep ignoring that point.  Instead you simply talk about crime rates, not the crimes they commit.  You excuse the crimes they commit by saying that they are no more likely to commit crimes than any other people who are here legally.  So effing what.  

If they were not here, the crimes they commit would not happen.  Why is that so hard to accept and understand ?
kcar

kcar Avatar
Posted: May 13, 2019 - 5:07pm
 westslope wrote:


 kcar wrote:
  
.......

The results of the analysis resemble those of other studies on the relationship between undocumented immigration and crime. Last year, a report by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, found that unauthorized immigrants in Texas committed fewer crimes than their native-born counterparts. A state-level analysis in Criminology, an academic journal, found that undocumented immigration did not increase violent crime and was in fact associated with slight decreases in it. Another Cato study found that unauthorized immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated.

At the more local level, an analysis by Governing magazine reported that metropolitan areas with more undocumented residents had similar rates of violent crime, and significantly lower rates of property crime, than areas with smaller numbers of such residents in 2014. After controlling for multiple socioeconomic factors, the author of the analysis, Mike Maciag, found that for every 1 percentage point increase in an area's population that was undocumented there were 94 fewer property crimes per 100,000 residents.
................

Many studies have established that immigrants commit crimes at consistently lower rates than native-born Americans. But a common concern is whether immigrants put pressure on native-born populations in any number of ways — for instance, by increasing job competition — that could indirectly lead to more crime and other negative impacts.

According to Mr. Adelman and his team, however, the impact of undocumented immigrants is probably similar to what the research indicates about immigrants over all: They tend to bring economic and cultural benefits to their communities. They typically come to America to find work, not to commit crimes, says Yulin Yang, a member of the team.

 
 
I am little surprised that these findings are not viewed as intuitively appealing by large numbers of Americans.   

As a community organizer for the UFW AFL-CIO in the Phoenix, AZ outlying suburbs, the odd time I came across illegal farm workers, they were nervous and remained constantly on full alert.  No matter how hard I tried, I could not make make them feel comfortable or relax.  Despite my Spanish and slang being better than any other blue-eyed white person in the entire region. 

The illegal status will provide ample incentives to behave well and avoid the attention of the police and other agents of the state.

 
 
 
Suspicions about immigrants legal and otherwise have a long history—based not  in fact but in fear of the unknown and fear of being displaced, economically and culturally. Americans supposedly take pride in the notion that their country is a melting pot willing to take refugees from other countries but that pride always seems to look back in time and not at the present. I think anti-immigrants can't intuitively grasp that immigrants often build up the country from the bottom of the economic pile; they just see takers and thieves and strange people not willing to assimilate.

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe
Posted: May 13, 2019 - 4:33pm


 kcar wrote:
  
.......

The results of the analysis resemble those of other studies on the relationship between undocumented immigration and crime. Last year, a report by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, found that unauthorized immigrants in Texas committed fewer crimes than their native-born counterparts. A state-level analysis in Criminology, an academic journal, found that undocumented immigration did not increase violent crime and was in fact associated with slight decreases in it. Another Cato study found that unauthorized immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated.

At the more local level, an analysis by Governing magazine reported that metropolitan areas with more undocumented residents had similar rates of violent crime, and significantly lower rates of property crime, than areas with smaller numbers of such residents in 2014. After controlling for multiple socioeconomic factors, the author of the analysis, Mike Maciag, found that for every 1 percentage point increase in an area's population that was undocumented there were 94 fewer property crimes per 100,000 residents.
................

Many studies have established that immigrants commit crimes at consistently lower rates than native-born Americans. But a common concern is whether immigrants put pressure on native-born populations in any number of ways — for instance, by increasing job competition — that could indirectly lead to more crime and other negative impacts.

According to Mr. Adelman and his team, however, the impact of undocumented immigrants is probably similar to what the research indicates about immigrants over all: They tend to bring economic and cultural benefits to their communities. They typically come to America to find work, not to commit crimes, says Yulin Yang, a member of the team.

 
 
I am little surprised that these findings are not viewed as intuitively appealing by large numbers of Americans.   

As a community organizer for the UFW AFL-CIO in the Phoenix, AZ outlying suburbs, the odd time I came across illegal farm workers, they were nervous and remained constantly on full alert.  No matter how hard I tried, I could not make make them feel comfortable or relax.  Despite my Spanish and slang being better than any other blue-eyed white person in the entire region. 

The illegal status will provide ample incentives to behave well and avoid the attention of the police and other agents of the state.
kcar

kcar Avatar
Posted: May 13, 2019 - 3:01pm
 
 
 
The skinny: an increase of illegal immigrants does not cause an increase in crime. Sorry, Kurt.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

An analysis derived from new data is now able to help address this question, suggesting that growth in illegal immigration does not lead to higher local crime rates.

In part because it’s hard to collect data on them, undocumented immigrants have been the subjects of few studies, including those related to crime. But the Pew Research Center recently released estimates of undocumented populations sorted by metro area, which The Marshall Project has compared with local crime rates published by the F.B.I. For the first time, there is an opportunity for a broader analysis of how unauthorized immigration might have affected crime rates since 2007.

 

 

...

 

 

The analysis found that crime went down at similar rates regardless of whether the undocumented population rose or fell. Areas with more unauthorized migration appeared to have larger drops in crime, although the difference was small and uncertain.

 

 

...

 

 

 

Most types of crime had an almost flat trend line, indicating that changes in undocumented populations had little or no effect on crime in the various metro areas under survey. Murder was the only type of crime that appeared to show a rise, but again the difference was small and uncertain (effectively zero).

 

 

 

...

 

 

The results of the analysis resemble those of other studies on the relationship between undocumented immigration and crime. Last year, a report by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, found that unauthorized immigrants in Texas committed fewer crimes than their native-born counterparts. A state-level analysis in Criminology, an academic journal, found that undocumented immigration did not increase violent crime and was in fact associated with slight decreases in it. Another Cato study found that unauthorized immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated.

At the more local level, an analysis by Governing magazine reported that metropolitan areas with more undocumented residents had similar rates of violent crime, and significantly lower rates of property crime, than areas with smaller numbers of such residents in 2014. After controlling for multiple socioeconomic factors, the author of the analysis, Mike Maciag, found that for every 1 percentage point increase in an area's population that was undocumented there were 94 fewer property crimes per 100,000 residents.

More research is underway about the potential effects of undocumented immigration on crime. Robert Adelman, a professor at the University at Buffalo, SUNY, whose group’s research The Marshall Project and The Upshot have previously documented, is leading a team to expand on the Governing analysis. Early results suggest unauthorized immigration has no effect on violent crime, and is associated with lower property crime, the same as Mr. Maciag found.

 

 

...

 

 

Many studies have established that immigrants commit crimes at consistently lower rates than native-born Americans. But a common concern is whether immigrants put pressure on native-born populations in any number of ways — for instance, by increasing job competition — that could indirectly lead to more crime and other negative impacts.

According to Mr. Adelman and his team, however, the impact of undocumented immigrants is probably similar to what the research indicates about immigrants over all: They tend to bring economic and cultural benefits to their communities. They typically come to America to find work, not to commit crimes, says Yulin Yang, a member of the team.

 

 

 

 

 
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male
Posted: Feb 9, 2019 - 9:12pm
 kurtster wrote:
Amazing how stupid some people are.  And they are reproducing at an exponential rate.
 
You need to go back to school to understand basic math.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male
Posted: Feb 9, 2019 - 9:08pm
 R_P wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
Not if you are AOC.  New Green Deal, eh ?
 
She's sure making a lot of old white guys very uncomfortable.
 
Not this one.  With only about 5 more years left in this body, it is unlikely to have much of an impact on me.

I do hope that I live long enough to see the shock of the gimme, gimme / instant gratification culture when they find out when aircraft are gone, their 2nd day / next day delivery of their stuff is gone, too.  High speed trains can move people but not freight.  2nd week delivery might be the best you can get.  And then to electrify the entire railroad system ... there ain't enough copper to do it.  No nuclear, no petroleum to fuel the electric grid.  Yeah, solar and wind can do it all.  Uh, huh.  Deforest the planet to replace / retrofit all buildings ?

Amazing how stupid some people are.  And they are reproducing at an exponential rate.  Explains why things are the way they are.  {#Cheesygrin}

We need a New Green Deal thread.  Oh how much fun it will be !!
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male
Posted: Feb 9, 2019 - 7:56pm
 kurtster wrote:
Not if you are AOC.  New Green Deal, eh ?

She's sure making a lot of old white guys very uncomfortable. 
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male
Posted: Feb 9, 2019 - 7:47pm
 R_P wrote:

Unless you want to rely on paranoia, then intent still requires evidence. 
 
Not if you are AOC.  New Green Deal, eh ?
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male
Posted: Feb 9, 2019 - 12:39am
Why the Wall Will Never Rise
Trump is no match for the Texas border barons.
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male
Posted: Feb 7, 2019 - 3:27pm
 Lazy8 wrote:
R_P wrote:
Dear Ann Coulter: Ben Franklin didn’t think you or Trump are White, Either (2016)

At least 4 grandparents born in America.

If that's her minimum standard...what's the maximum?
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male
Posted: Feb 7, 2019 - 3:21pm
R_P wrote:
Dear Ann Coulter: Ben Franklin didn’t think you or Trump are White, Either (2016)

At least 4 grandparents born in America.

If that's her minimum standard...what's the maximum?
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male
Posted: Feb 7, 2019 - 2:02pm
Dear Ann Coulter: Ben Franklin didn’t think you or Trump are White, Either (2016)
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male
Posted: Jan 25, 2019 - 2:47pm

R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male
Posted: Jan 24, 2019 - 4:14am
 kurtster wrote:
(...) The intent however, remains unchanged and the intent matters most.
 
Unless you want to rely on paranoia, then intent still requires evidence. So far you haven't provided any. You should get by now how that works.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male
Posted: Jan 24, 2019 - 2:10am
 R_P wrote:
So, did Trump mention the Latino view on re-election? Or does he only present the good news?

 
You're up late.  I'm pretty much done and going to get flat soon.

and I have not yet heard Trump's specific remarks on this. Sure that I will soon enough.

g'nite
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male
Posted: Jan 24, 2019 - 1:56am
So, did Trump mention the Latino view on re-election? Or does he only present the good news?
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male
Posted: Jan 24, 2019 - 1:51am
 R_P wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
Nope.  No contradiction.

Hiding good news even if it means hiding the bad news.  No news is what we get / got instead.
 
You've already asserted that good news is out of bounds and thus they won't do that. In your conspiracy they only report the bad stuff (never mind that 69% of Republicans would re-elect, which sounds pretty good if you're in that gang). Then why not just post the additional bad news? Because then they would, all of a sudden, have this obligation to post the good news, which supposedly they won't/wouldn't do anyway. SRSLY?

PS: Did Trump mention the Latino view on re-election?

 
You are forgetting republican support is a given and must show up.  It doesn't count as good news, unless it drops.  What matters most are the I's and the D's.  Or D's really because most polls only mention the two parties.

So other than the republican approval numbers, anything else that might show good news is buried and glossed over by omission as in this particular piece's cover story.  It's quite common to do that, right ?  Like good news will only show in the backs pages of anything printed.  And retractions get buried in the back pages to make sure that the original version of a story sticks.  The Intercept article you posted goes into that.

So with the one exception taken, there is no contradiction.  If you don't allow the exception for the republican approval numbers, then yes there would be a technical contradiction.  The intent however, remains unchanged and the intent matters most.
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male
Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 10:37pm
 kurtster wrote:
Nope.  No contradiction.

Hiding good news even if it means hiding the bad news.  No news is what we get / got instead.
 
You've already asserted that good news is out of bounds and thus they won't do that. In your conspiracy they only report the bad stuff (never mind that 69% of Republicans would re-elect, which sounds pretty good if you're in that gang). Then why not just post the additional bad news? Because then they would, all of a sudden, have this obligation to post the good news, which supposedly they won't/wouldn't do anyway. SRSLY?

PS: Did Trump mention the Latino view on re-election?
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male
Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 10:20pm
 R_P wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
Nope, any admission of good news for Trump is out of bounds.  To show your point (the bad news) would require showing the good news. (...)
 
You don't see the contradiction there, right?
 
Nope.  No contradiction.

Hiding good news even if it means hiding the bad news.  No news is what we get / got instead.
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