The only thing I wanted/got from my dad's "estate" when he died (his wife didn't tell us for three days, because she was hiding any assets she could for fear we might get them) was this delicate, magical slide rule with a leather cover. The kind they used to figure out the Apollo missions. It had a manual dated 1954. In the spirit of "better not end up in the junk pile on my watch" I just passed it to my older boy. He may not have a clue about how interesting it is, but that's for him to deal with now, not me. This is it, but someone else's. Note the multiple scales on the thing, so meticulous and amazing.
Yeah, I used to have a slide rule for school into the early 70's before calculators. Never really was good at using it properly. It was pretty handy for writing equations I couldn't remember in pencil on the one side for test taking though.
Now Calculus is taught using Excel in the classroom and allowed for test taking. It has come down to you only need to know what the proper variables are to plug into Excel. Being able to actually work the equations is no longer required. And that was back in 2006 when I last took a course. My how times have changed.
Location: At the dude ranch / above the sea Gender:
Posted:
Oct 3, 2025 - 6:23am
kurtster wrote:
I must add that with J's suggestion I finally got a copy of Swedish Death Cleaning for Americans a week ago. I know that both of you have mentioned it over the years and I finally got to it. My Mom's Mom was Swedish so that has been a large part of my life anyway. So the book just naturally works for me. It even has a part about cleaning up your digital life. And I am at that point of my life anyway. The ripping is already part of that process by intent. The sound is all that I need It is freeing me up from the physical part of the music. Cleaning up my mess so no one else has to do it. I just went through cleaning up my Mom's leftovers for lack of any other way to put it and it was pure hell dealing with all the unfinished and open things.
The only thing I wanted/got from my dad's "estate" when he died (his wife didn't tell us for three days, because she was hiding any assets she could for fear we might get them) was this delicate, magical slide rule with a leather cover. The kind they used to figure out the Apollo missions. It had a manual dated 1954.
In the spirit of "better not end up in the junk pile on my watch" I just passed it to my older boy. He may not have a clue about how interesting it is, but that's for him to deal with now, not me.
This is it, but someone else's. Note the multiple scales on the thing, so meticulous and amazing.
Lastly, for now anyway and ironically, you have to budget time to actually listen to the end product. Otherwise what is the purpose of doing all of this in the first place ?
I use Plex to hold my FLAC files, and then folks with PlexAmp can use my link to get into my stash and listen. Perhaps something like that so others can enjoy your work properly? https://www.plex.tv/plexamp/
I haven't done one bit of streaming of anything really other than RP. My music computer like I said, is XP based and I don't go to the Internet on it. It is hardwired to my receiver via a 25 foot toslink optical cable. No RF interference. Not even the slightest chance of it. I use foobar for playlists and whatnot and it does have RP links to it which is how I listen to RP on the big rig using the Ethernet gateway through the main computer. The studio shares the same wall with the living room and I put a hole through it to feed cables from room to room including Ethernet cables so even that is hardwired.
I have an NAS that has sat for a couple of years unused. I tried to use it but it doesn't recognize XP properly. My main computer that I use for everything else will work with it. My main computer sees the XP computer and I can transfer files to it, but I can't get the XP to download from the main. It keeps asking for the Main's computer name and password and I long ago forgot where to find that and gave up trying so everything I download on the main has to get put onto a USB thumb drive and transferred that way. That includes all the hi rez files I've bought over time.
I'm getting ready to try the NAS again soon. I got three 16 TB HDD's sitting and waiting. It's a 2 bay Raid 1 configuration. But all that doesn't matter until I get to the point of finalizing the music files on the XP music server. Then gradually they'll make it to the main computer and NAS for permanent storage and safety copies. Then I can think of sharing music via something like Plex. Until then, its USB drives to share with friends and they can put them into their systems which ever way works for them. Everything is wav, too. I can't use FLAC in the cars and don't have a file converter that does that well anyway. No meta data with the files. Just the file title which has enough info in it to nail down what it is and the file source. or provenance if you will. All the files start out in 24 bit 96 khz files and get resampled and what not from them which is also a one at a time process. No bulk process for that that I trust.
Sigh. And so it goes.
I must add that with J's suggestion I finally got a copy of Swedish Death Cleaning for Americans a week ago. I know that both of you have mentioned it over the years and I finally got to it. My Mom's Mom was Swedish so that has been a large part of my life anyway. So the book just naturally works for me. It even has a part about cleaning up your digital life. And I am at that point of my life anyway. The ripping is already part of that process by intent. The sound is all that I need It is freeing me up from the physical part of the music. Cleaning up my mess so no one else has to do it. I just went through cleaning up my Mom's leftovers for lack of any other way to put it and it was pure hell dealing with all the unfinished and open things.
Location: At the dude ranch / above the sea Gender:
Posted:
Oct 1, 2025 - 10:08am
kurtster wrote:
Lastly, for now anyway and ironically, you have to budget time to actually listen to the end product. Otherwise what is the purpose of doing all of this in the first place ?
I use Plex to hold my FLAC files, and then folks with PlexAmp can use my link to get into my stash and listen. Perhaps something like that so others can enjoy your work properly? https://www.plex.tv/plexamp/
So the learning process continues.
The plan is to keep ripping till Thanksgiving and then put together a mixtape for December and thumb drives for stocking stuffers.
This is all as planned years ago for when I reached this stage of my life. Thank Ceiling Cat that I still have my hearing :) Much better than stamp collecting ...
So the learning process continues. My previous conclusions about VTA settings turned out to be wrong. All this time I was focused on the tree and ignoring the forest. It turns out that I was working at the minimum ranges of the adjustment. By accident, I played a thinner, lighter record at the setting for a 180 gram heavy weight and it sounded pretty good. I was focusing on the micro and missing the macro. Looking back, way back, it's a big duh. No cart / stylus combo can be that fussy. They all must have a fairly generous sweet spot in order to work properly. So I discovered the sweet spot for my configuration purely by accident. I was simply working at the edges of the sweet spot and missing the target.
As fussy as my cart is, it does have a rather generous sweet spot as it turns out and being in or near the center sounds noticeably better. So here we go again, another restart. This is the final restart at last. No other adjustments are possible. I have gone back and listened to the previous rips and compared them and it is more than just subtle. The detail is more pronounced and hearing the decay of higher frequencies is where it shows up best. Voices are clearer and I'm hearing the lyrics much better now rather than thinking I am and need to read them to be sure.
10/01/2025
Now that I'm about 30 albums into this now I seem to finally have figured how to use all of this stuff properly and get what I am hoping to get as the end results. Thus begins the next part of the process which is consolidation and deletion of all of the rips.
What do I keep and what do I permanently delete forever ? I have 100's of recordings of albums from earlier configurations that are no longer in my possession to make new copies. Working in XP, hard drive space is limited to 2TB on each drive. I have 4 of them and they are all full and I've already deleted about 500 GB in the past 6 months to make space for what I am ripping now. I've decided a preferred cart used for a particular rip as the tie breaker. Still have to listen before deleting though and that is more time taken up for that process. It is so involved that I look at all of this in terms of man hours and need to figure out a schedule for certain tasks in order to keep me moving forward. 30 albums ripped involves about 100 man hours, not counting the track cleanup. 25 man hours per week, every week in order to keep pace. Then there is maintaining a mood conducive to playing music and listening to something repeatedly in the process of ripping. When you play an album, not every song is a winner and you have to suck it up and soldier through them knowing that they will end eventually, same as listening to the radio except that you are at least in charge of what you are hearing when you are hearing it. The term Music Appreciation takes on a whole different meaning.
Lastly, for now anyway and ironically, you have to budget time to actually listen to the end product. Otherwise what is the purpose of doing all of this in the first place ?
For anyone reading and curious, the playlist log is about 15 posts back and goes by month. It is the log for work in progress and how I am staying somewhat organized.
The plan is to keep ripping till Thanksgiving and then put together a mixtape for December and thumb drives for stocking stuffers.
This is all as planned years ago for when I reached this stage of my life. Thank Ceiling Cat that I still have my hearing :) Much better than stamp collecting ...
Location: At the dude ranch / above the sea Gender:
Posted:
Aug 19, 2025 - 1:51pm
kurtster wrote:
Someone here suggested that if I ever got the money, that I would buy a $25k turntable. Well I could if I wanted to, hell I could buy one for $50k but nope, I got the one I really wanted for under $5k along with Degritter for around $4k. I am happy and fully satisfied now. And with the very noticeable improvements with the sound quality, I am very glad that I did not hem and haw about whether or not I should pull the trigger and get the stuff. I would have been extremely bummed if I had waited even six months to make the decision. If I had waited any longer other than when I did to find out, I would have had some serious regrets for waiting. I can now proceed with absolutely zero regrets.
And proceed I will.
This, more ways than one, rocks.
âGrow old along with me. The best is yet to be, the last of life for which the first was made.â
So as things become finite, how good is good enough ?
This last tweak of weighing the records for setting the VTA has taken things to the highest level I can reach with what I have to work with.
The difference between guessing and knowing is pretty profound, enough so to once more give some one last spin before they are gone.
I can't remember the last time I heard any sibilance since starting this. The bottom end is there now more often than not, both long standing criticisms of vinyl.
I have less of an urge to rework albums hoping to get them to sound better. Now it's primarily get the ticks and glitches and then rebalance the volume of the tracks if necessary. Rarely needed with CD's but more often than not with vinyl the levels are often very different and bringing them into balance can make something great even better. Remember the balance knob on the receiver ? It was more for the vinyl than your listening room. Now I finally know exactly why it was needed.
Once more I think of the got aways that I wish I still had. Sigh.
I've even bought another copy of some of them a few times since hearing the improvement with this last tweak. With that, I've been going back and listening to the got aways and see if they stand up or try again. Can I live with what I have ? Most times, yes cuz I was doing it pretty good at this point anyways. And some are simply irreplaceable, so there is no choice.
More than ever I notice when a recording or the mastering is less than optimal, but when it is on, the music becomes sublime. What we get used to over decades of listening to a song or an album over and over reveals a built in tolerance and wishful thinking that what you're listening to is what was intended by the engineer (not the band at the point of actually cutting the lacquer). There are stories of Page and Lennon (and others to be sure) sitting in and participating in the album lacquer cutting sessions. Getting the VTA correct gets you that much closer to the same settings used by the cutting lathe which is the overall goal of tuning your turntable for optimal playback. It is said to concentrate on pianos and female vocals to hear how you're doing.
08/05/2025
My how things have changed since the previous thought above. I've added a new turntable and ultrasonic cleaner into the chain. A Technics SL1210 GK and a Degritter ultrasonic cleaner. Great googly moogly. The turntable arrived the beginning of July and the improvement was immediately noticeable. So I once more started the ripping process over. After 2 weeks I was impressed enough to say F it and go for the Degritter. I've wanted both of these since they came out. I watched the development of the Degritter from the beginning to now over at Discogs where the inventors had a thread dedicated to introducing it to a large vinyl community and sharing progress and taking lots of feedback over a 4 year period. Midway when the first ones rolled out it was about a year later that The Library of Congress added them to their toolbox, they were that good. Just drooled and wished to get one someday if I won the lottery or something. My VPI Cyclone was doing a decent job and did the best I could with it. Along the way many of the Degritter owners also had a Cyclone or similar vacuum RCM's and still used them for rinsing after using an ultrasonic cleaning. The fuckers are not ever gonna get cleaner than I can get them now.
So the Degritter arrived 2 1/2 weeks later. Another noticeable audible improvement. Damn, start over again, now for the very last time. tain't never gonna get better. Good thing I didn't get too far into the restart.
08/10/2025
The Degritter. For openers it has lowered the sound floor another 3 or 4 dB's. That adds dynamic range to the equation all by itself. I have also noticed that once Degritted, a record needs no further cleaning and stays clean. Only a brush off with my cleaning pad before any subsequent play should it be necessary. Before, with just the VPI vacuum, I would run the record through every time before playing because it always got the vinyl cleaner. Now, it is as clean as it is going to ever get.
With that, I now only play each side 2 times instead of 3. Less playing time, man hours and less hours on the stylus, which is a very finite resource. Efficiency has been greatly improved and any doubts about the cleanliness of the vinyl are gone. And any further doubts about improving the quality of the rip are gone. Done is now done. And the music sounds better overall with all of the stuff that causes extraneous noises now gone. That is the goal and whole purpose to begin with. Get the best possible sound and be done ever having to go through the actual process of playing the record again. Playing files is so much easier than going through the hassle of playing records. Also enabling downsizing as a bonus.
08/15/2025
Farther along and still learning. Have had to do a serious reassessment of the VTA settings for each piece of vinyl. With this new TT, a change of just 0.15mm in height has a very profound affect. And I have also changed my earlier thoughts that lower is better to higher is better, or at least do not be afraid to go higher. The VTA has the most impact on the bass and secondarily on the higher frequencies like cymbals and vocals for dealing with sibilance, which has become something I haven't heard much of anymore.
This journal thread has become a log for the process. Wasn't the intention but it is what it has become. I have been going through so many albums that it is almost impossible to remember what and when I ripped something. That makes the process of cleaning up the rips even crazier. With that the notations have evolved to the point where I can now have a chronological order of the rips as well as the weight and VTA settings for each playback and most recently came up with a notation that allows me to keep track of how much work I have done to each particular side of an album and how much more I have to do to get to that final notation of the uppercase F to say that it is done. The field is o / o with the o meaning just ripped only, a 1 means I have started to do stuff, an f means I have made it all the way through a side at least twice and then the F for stick a fork in it.
08/19/2025
So I did not hit the lottery but money has started to come in from my Mom's estate which gave me the funds to make these latest upgrades. And also finally be able to actually retire. Someone here suggested that if I ever got the money, that I would buy a $25k turntable. Well I could if I wanted to, hell I could buy one for $50k but nope, I got the one I really wanted for under $5k along with Degritter for around $4k. I am happy and fully satisfied now. And with the very noticeable improvements with the sound quality, I am very glad that I did not hem and haw about whether or not I should pull the trigger and get the stuff. I would have been extremely bummed if I had waited even six months to make the decision. If I had waited any longer other than when I did to find out, I would have had some serious regrets for waiting. I can now proceed with absolutely zero regrets.
And proceed I will. This is my retirement hobby / pastime / activity that I chose many many years ago. With my developing physical limitations post transplant it has also been practical as well. It was perfect for Covid lockdown.
It was getting pretty tedious as of late but these upgrades have been their own reward and while not fun it not as much work as it has been. And the sound makes it all worthwhile. I'm still here at RP almost every day but in here in this thread as opposed to out there where the RAFT shows my activity.
So in the it's never too late or you're never too old to learn something new department ...
I've added one more step to the turntable tuning process for ripping. Setting the VTA (Vertical Tracking Angle) for a disc while very important has been determined up until now by holding the album and guessing how much it weighs to determine the thickness of the disc itself. The current rage is 180 gram pressings with some saying that they are 200 grams and they are noticeably thicker besides heavier.
Provided that a turntable has this adjustment, which most do not, the adjustment was usually have the tone arm parallel on the same plane with the disc on the turntable. Most carts have a tracking angle of either 20 or 23 degrees to get the stylus at the correct angle to the surface for correct playback. Fine for the old days when the carts were generally less sophisticated and the vinyl was all pretty uniform in weight with the exception of Dynaflex pressings which were deliberately thinner and lighter. Around 100 grams or less. Without this adjustment the best you can do is buy different thickness mats to raise and lower the vinyl as needed.
Now with all the new pressings of up to 200 grams the range of thickness has expanded rather dramatically. Over the years I have found that a change in height as little as 0.25 mm can have a profound difference in sound on some records. You can boost the bass by going lower and improve the clarity of the high end by raising the height as in the case with sibilance and cymbals. There is an ideal height where you get the proper balance and reach the cart's specified angle.
My standard range went from 2.40 mm to up to 4.00mm for these newer and heavier pressings with my new cart. With my previous cart I would sometimes go up to 5.00 mm but it had some hours on it and the suspension was wearing out and it started to sag so I had to increase the height to make up for that sagging.
So the solution is to actually start weighing the vinyl before playing instead of guessing. I just got a 6 disc box set that had obvious differences in thickness and weight so I figured it was time to try weighing them and see what the difference actually was. I have a newish scale that I recently found out has a hold function so I can put something bigger than the platform and get a good true weight without doing some acrobatics. Some were 140 and others were 160 to 170 grams. Enough of a difference for different settings.
The result has been better than expected. By playing one of the box set discs at 4 different heights and playing back the rips I figured out which setting was best for that weight. Surprisingly, the lower the height the better. I used to err on the higher side. Going lower, the sound is markedly fuller on most discs. Sibilance is pretty much a very uncommon thing now to boot. Never really had any problems with this cart, but everything is better overall and I'm pretty confident now to use the weight for the setting.
The whole idea of ripping is to capture the best playback possible which requires all kinds of care and adjustments for a specific piece of vinyl and then never have to do it again and listen to the rip instead. For casually playing vinyl and listening the process is a bit nuts. Now I just listen to the rip whenever and it is never going to sound better or worse, the record won't suffer from playing anymore and the stylus hours don't get wasted.
This new cart was put into service the last week of July, 2024 and since then I have 1050 album sides or about 350 hours on it. Calling one album side 20 minutes. Nearly 9 / 40 hour work weeks. The stylus is good for anywhere between 700 and 900 hours. I have two more factory styli waiting, then it's all over for the cart as there are no more left on the planet for this cart. I'm way too old to be trying out new carts, and too broke to even think of trying. They generally are not returnable if you don't like how they sound.
The cart is a 1980 ish AT20SLa, Shibata stylus I bought as a New Old Stock item a few years ago after years of hunting to replace my AT15SS (Super Shibata) carts. There was one better, the AT20SS, its predecessor. Unlike most carts, it tests flat from 5hz to 19khz so there is virtually no coloration to the signal. Frequency response is from 5hz to 50khz. They all came with an individualized print out from the test. Ain't nothing like them has been made since, at least that I know of. They were originally designed to play Quad vinyl. Haven't seen any for sale since as I do look a couple of times a year for S& G's.
The turntable is a 1989 Technics SL 1200 MK3 100 volt Japanese model I bought about 10 years ago that I have done some modifications to over time. It should take me to the end, I hope ...
Weighing the records is the last addition to this process. No more guessing and stressing about setting the VTA. I might revisit some earlier rips for comparison but I'm not going to worry too much to start all over again.
My head shell has a vta adjuster. I usually leave it be⦠most of my vinyl is standard 70s and 80s issue with some newer 180g.
I predict a cooling off of the political heat, & not just here. Hope Iâm right.
When it comes to US politics I have zero faith in my ability to predict anything at all â but my intuition tells me that more and more of us are beginning to buy into the crazy idea that just because someone belongs to that other tribe doesnât mean that we canât still work together on common projects and discuss our many commonly held values and interests.
So in the it's never too late or you're never too old to learn something new department ...
I've added one more step to the turntable tuning process for ripping. Setting the VTA (Vertical Tracking Angle) for a disc while very important has been determined up until now by holding the album and guessing how much it weighs to determine the thickness of the disc itself. The current rage is 180 gram pressings with some saying that they are 200 grams and they are noticeably thicker besides heavier.
Provided that a turntable has this adjustment, which most do not, the adjustment was usually have the tone arm parallel on the same plane with the disc on the turntable. Most carts have a tracking angle of either 20 or 23 degrees to get the stylus at the correct angle to the surface for correct playback. Fine for the old days when the carts were generally less sophisticated and the vinyl was all pretty uniform in weight with the exception of Dynaflex pressings which were deliberately thinner and lighter. Around 100 grams or less. Without this adjustment the best you can do is buy different thickness mats to raise and lower the vinyl as needed.
Now with all the new pressings of up to 200 grams the range of thickness has expanded rather dramatically. Over the years I have found that a change in height as little as 0.25 mm can have a profound difference in sound on some records. You can boost the bass by going lower and improve the clarity of the high end by raising the height as in the case with sibilance and cymbals. There is an ideal height where you get the proper balance and reach the cart's specified angle.
My standard range went from 2.40 mm to up to 4.00mm for these newer and heavier pressings with my new cart. With my previous cart I would sometimes go up to 5.00 mm but it had some hours on it and the suspension was wearing out and it started to sag so I had to increase the height to make up for that sagging.
So the solution is to actually start weighing the vinyl before playing instead of guessing. I just got a 6 disc box set that had obvious differences in thickness and weight so I figured it was time to try weighing them and see what the difference actually was. I have a newish scale that I recently found out has a hold function so I can put something bigger than the platform and get a good true weight without doing some acrobatics. Some were 140 and others were 160 to 170 grams. Enough of a difference for different settings.
The result has been better than expected. By playing one of the box set discs at 4 different heights and playing back the rips I figured out which setting was best for that weight. Surprisingly, the lower the height the better. I used to err on the higher side. Going lower, the sound is markedly fuller on most discs. Sibilance is pretty much a very uncommon thing now to boot. Never really had any problems with this cart, but everything is better overall and I'm pretty confident now to use the weight for the setting.
The whole idea of ripping is to capture the best playback possible which requires all kinds of care and adjustments for a specific piece of vinyl and then never have to do it again and listen to the rip instead. For casually playing vinyl and listening the process is a bit nuts. Now I just listen to the rip whenever and it is never going to sound better or worse, the record won't suffer from playing anymore and the stylus hours don't get wasted.
This new cart was put into service the last week of July, 2024 and since then I have 1050 album sides or about 350 hours on it. Calling one album side 20 minutes. Nearly 9 / 40 hour work weeks. The stylus is good for anywhere between 700 and 900 hours. I have two more factory styli waiting, then it's all over for the cart as there are no more left on the planet for this cart. I'm way too old to be trying out new carts, and too broke to even think of trying. They generally are not returnable if you don't like how they sound.
The cart is a 1980 ish AT20SLa, Shibata stylus I bought as a New Old Stock item a few years ago after years of hunting to replace my AT15SS (Super Shibata) carts. There was one better, the AT20SS, its predecessor. Unlike most carts, it tests flat from 5hz to 19khz so there is virtually no coloration to the signal. Frequency response is from 5hz to 50khz. They all came with an individualized print out from the test. Ain't nothing like them has been made since, at least that I know of. They were originally designed to play Quad vinyl. Haven't seen any for sale since as I do look a couple of times a year for S& G's.
The turntable is a 1989 Technics SL 1200 MK3 100 volt Japanese model I bought about 10 years ago that I have done some modifications to over time. It should take me to the end, I hope ...
Weighing the records is the last addition to this process. No more guessing and stressing about setting the VTA. I might revisit some earlier rips for comparison but I'm not going to worry too much to start all over again.
Damn. That sounds hard. To say the least. Respect to you for showing up. An awful lot of people don’t… And as for the need to keep a low profile on the RAFT, I understand (& props for an ingenious solution) but I don’t think it’ll be necessary. I predict a cooling off of the political heat, & not just here. Hope I’m right. When it comes to US politics I have zero faith in my ability to predict anything at all — but my intuition tells me that more and more of us are beginning to buy into the crazy idea that just because someone belongs to that other tribe doesn’t mean that we can’t still work together on common projects and discuss our many commonly held values and interests. Like vinyl :-)
Thanks much. Your thoughts are very much appreciated.
Yeah, until I got a call from the rehab place where my Mom was just deposited in earlier in the day after being discharged from the hospital.
All hell has broken lose. She is refusing to comply with anything and refusing her meds. I had to stop in there this morning on my way to work to read her the riot act about doing what she is told to do. Dementia has become undeniable among other things. I have a meeting with staff on Monday and have to work on getting to be made her conservator. Other than that, life is great.
The empty posts ? I'm going to start logging my vinyl spins in here so as not to piss off certain people. I can update them here in the empty posts without them showing up in the RAFT since they will just be edited as opposed to new.
Just making adjustments to new realities.
.
Damn. That sounds hard. To say the least. Respect to you for showing up. An awful lot of people donâtâ¦
And as for the need to keep a low profile on the RAFT, I understand (& props for an ingenious solution) but I donât think itâll be necessary.
I predict a cooling off of the political heat, & not just here. Hope Iâm right.
When it comes to US politics I have zero faith in my ability to predict anything at all â but my intuition tells me that more and more of us are beginning to buy into the crazy idea that just because someone belongs to that other tribe doesnât mean that we canât still work together on common projects and discuss our many commonly held values and interests.
Looking at your posts Kurt, it seems like you had a quiet New Years Eve.
Yeah, until I got a call from the rehab place where my Mom was just deposited in earlier in the day after being discharged from the hospital.
All hell has broken lose. She is refusing to comply with anything and refusing her meds. I had to stop in there this morning on my way to work to read her the riot act about doing what she is told to do. Dementia has become undeniable among other things. I have a meeting with staff on Monday and have to work on getting to be made her conservator. Other than that, life is great.
The empty posts ? I'm going to start logging my vinyl spins in here so as not to piss off certain people. I can update them here in the empty posts without them showing up in the RAFT since they will just be edited as opposed to new.
